Would you ever call this BC

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

What do you think, call or no-call?

Why would you not call it? Is not everyone watching this play? Now if you see it that might be another issue all together. I just know I have called BC violations when players throw the ball in the backcourt or they get mixed around to which way they are supposed to be going. I do not see why this is different.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why would you not call it? Is not everyone watching this play? Now if you see it that might be another issue all together. I just know I have called BC violations when players throw the ball in the backcourt or they get mixed around to which way they are supposed to be going. I do not see why this is different.

Peace

Well, everybody in the gym is watching this play, but apparently nobody else actually saw it. If anyone else recognized it, they never said a word. Like I said, it was very quick and occurred in the midst of the post-jump muddle. So likely nobody else realized it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Well, everybody in the gym is watching this play, but apparently nobody else actually saw it. If anyone else recognized it, they never said a word. Like I said, it was very quick and occurred in the midst of the post-jump muddle. So likely nobody else realized it.

Maybe "everybody else" wasn't sure that A1 dribbled the ball. Your "no call" confirmed that it was just a bat, and not a dribble, so there was no violation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Maybe "everybody else" wasn't sure that A1 dribbled the ball. Your "no call" confirmed that it was just a bat, and not a dribble, so there was no violation.

Not one of your clearer answers, Bob. I understand that you are pointing out that A1 may not have been in control of the ball yet, but a bat can certainly be considered a dribble, if the official deems it was a controlled movement.

4-15-1 . . . A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

4-15-3 . . . The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.


Of course, you have the following rules support on your side:

4-15-4 NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.


So what is the difference between a bat and a slap?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Not one of your clearer answers, Bob. I understand that you are pointing out that A1 may not have been in control of the ball yet, but a bat can certainly be considered a dribble, if the official deems it was a controlled movement.

4-15-1 . . . A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

4-15-3 . . . The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.


Of course, you have the following rules support on your side:

4-15-4 NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.


So what is the difference between a bat and a slap?

I'm not sure a dribbler can slap the ball during a jump:

ART. 3 . . . The jump ball begins when the ball leaves the referee's hand(s) and ends when the touched ball contacts a nonjumper, the floor, a basket or backboard.

The jump ball ends the very instant the dribbler contacts the tapped ball, does it not? Then following through with a batting or slapping motion becomes part of the next play?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I'm not sure a dribbler can slap the ball during a jump:

ART. 3 . . . The jump ball begins when the ball leaves the referee's hand(s) and ends when the touched ball contacts a nonjumper, the floor, a basket or backboard.

The jump ball ends the very instant the dribbler contacts the tapped ball, does it not? Then following through with a batting or slapping motion becomes part of the next play?

Excellent point. So only if the "dribbler" was a designated jumper are we sure that no violation occurred.

Otherwise we are back to judging player control. A player can slap or bat a ball prior to establishing player control following the jump, right? And that slap or bat doesn't have to constitute a dribble.

So I'd say that like most aspects of basketball officiating this call comes down to the official's judgment. If you believed that there was player control and hence a dribble, as you put in your original post, then I believe that you are honor-bound to call the violation. However, if you truly believe that the player had not yet established control, then you should leave it alone.