allowed to run the baseline??

[Josh Ovens]

i had a game last night. As A1 puts up a jumpshot, my partner call a foul on A2 for fouling B2 after the ball is released and in the air. the shot was good, ball went through the basket.
CALL: my partner reported the foul on A2. he nullified the basket. the coach was ranting and raving, so my partner asked me if the ball was released before he blew the whistle. and i told him," the ball went in, it was released before the foul/ whistle blew." we went ahead and scored the basket and gave the ball to Team B on the baseline. I let him run the baseline, even though the foul was called, the basket was scored. If it was a close game, and a team wanted a foul after a basket to prevent them from running the baseline to put the ball at the spot throw in. it puts them at a disadvantage. so thats what i went with. me and other officials looked it up in the rule/ case book, but couldnt find the senario. can someone help me out to find it?

[Jurassic Referee]

See casebook play 7.5.7SitE. You done good.

[Josh Ovens]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
See casebook play 7.5.7SitE. You done good.

thank you. a case play to back it up means a million.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Josh Ovens
i had a game last night. As A1 puts up a jumpshot, my partner call a foul on A2 for fouling B2 after the ball is released and in the air. the shot was good, ball went through the basket.
CALL: my partner reported the foul on A2. he nullified the basket. the coach was ranting and raving, so my partner asked me if the ball was released before he blew the whistle. and i told him," the ball went in, it was released before the foul/ whistle blew." we went ahead and scored the basket and gave the ball to Team B on the baseline. I let him run the baseline, even though the foul was called, the basket was scored. If it was a close game, and a team wanted a foul after a basket to prevent them from running the baseline to put the ball at the spot throw in. it puts them at a disadvantage. so thats what i went with. me and other officials looked it up in the rule/ case book, but couldnt find the senario. can someone help me out to find it?

The question that should have been asked is whether or not A2's foul was committed bfore A1's attempt was released? Your partner's whistle does not necessarily make a live ball dead. If A1 still had control of the ball when A2 fouled B2, then the ball became dead the instant A2's foul occured. If A1 had released the ball for his/her attempt and then A2 fouled B2, then the ball remains live until the shot is either made or missed. If the former is the case, then A1's field goal attempt is scored and if Team B is not in the bonus situation it will receive the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the endline in its backcourt. If it is the latter case, then A1's field goal attempt is not scored because a dead ball cannot score and if Team B is not in the bonus situation it will receive the ball for a designated spot throw-in nearest the spot of A2's foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The question that should have been asked is whether or not A2's foul was committed bfore A1's attempt was released?

The question was answered six and a half hours before you asked it.From Josh's original post above,the foul occurred after the shot was released.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

The question was answered six and a half hours before you asked it.From Josh's original post above,the foul occurred after the shot was released.

Here is the direct qoute from Josh's post:

my partner asked me if the ball was released before he blew the whistle. and i told him, "the ball went in, it was released before the foul/whistle blew."


The official's whistle will always sound after the foul has been committed. So once again, I ask, was the ball released before the foul or after the foul. Saying that the ball "was released before the foul/whisle blew" does not answer the question I posed in my first post.

In Josh's play only two things could of occured: 1) the ball was released before A2's foul or 2) the ball was released after A2's foul. The sounding of the official's whistle has no bearing on the play except to signal that a foul has occured and that the clock if running should be stopped.

I am not disagreeing with you concerning the Casebook Play you referenced. I posed my question in my first post to remind officials that it is not the sounding of the whistle that is important but when the foul was committed in relation to the release of the field goal attempt.

[Josh Ovens]

[QUOTE]Here is the direct qoute from Josh's post:

my partner asked me if the ball was released before he blew the whistle. and i told him, "the ball went in, it was released before the foul/whistle blew."


The official's whistle will always sound after the foul has been committed. So once again, I ask, was the ball released before the foul or after the foul. Saying that the ball "was released before the foul/whisle blew" does not answer the question I posed in my first post[QUOTE]
well mark, let me put it in black and white so you dont misinterpret what happened. I saw that A1 had released the shot, since i was the lead and the shot went up in the paint, i was watching him, after the shot was released and in the air, my partner whistled A2 for a foul. he waived off the basket right then and there. then he came back and asked me and i told him the ball already left the shooters hand. so we counted 2 and went the other way. end of story:

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Josh Ovens

I saw that A1 had released the shot, since i was the lead and the shot went up in the paint, i was watching him, after the shot was released and in the air, my partner whistled A2 for a foul. he waived off the basket right then and there. then he came back and asked me and i told him the ball already left the shooters hand. so we counted 2 and went the other way.
[/B]

Good communication between partners, and a good job getting the interpretation and call right. Can't improve on that one.

[Josh Ovens]

[/B][/QUOTE]Good communication between partners, and a good job getting the interpretation and call right. Can't improve on that one. [/B][/QUOTE]
thank you. its important to communicate well between your partners, no matter what. my philosophy is, "lets get it right."

[MOFFICIAL]

Great points on all sides. Communication is very important in getting the call right it sounds like you two got together and decided the release was prior to the foul and the right call and ensuing activity were handled correctly. MTD says it well that the timing of the whistle and the actual foul are not simultaneous. The release of the ball before the foul is the important criteria. We are also a team out there and though we don't have the luxury of discussing all calls when they happen it sure helps to know your partner is there for you.
Josh to me philosophpy is my application of the rules based on my knowledge and experiences. They may differ from my partner but actual knowledge of a situation that makes a call right is knowledge that needs to be shared. Then if my partner wants to change his call based on that information that is his call to make.

[Edited by MOFFICIAL on Feb 22nd, 2004 at 08:02 PM]

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Josh Ovens
I saw that A1 had released the shot, since i was the lead and the shot went up in the paint, i was watching him, after the shot was released and in the air, my partner whistled A2 for a foul. [/B]

Josh, Looking at what you wrote above, I have to ask, if you saw the foul committed by A2?
It seems that you did not, since you were watching your primary area and the shooter, A1, who was in it.
If that is true, then how can you say the following?:

Originally posted by Josh Ovens
then he came back and asked me and i told him the ball already left the shooters hand. [/B]

I can understand you hearing your partner's whistle and knowing that the try had been released at that time, but if you didn't see the foul and if the whistle lagged the foul a fair bit, there is no way that you could know for sure the location of the ball at the time of the foul. The ball could have still been in A1's hands at the time of the foul, but he then released it before the whistle was sounded by your partner. If that was the case, you guys did not get the play correct. I think that this is the major part of MTD's point. If neither of you observed both actions (the foul and the release of the try) there is no way to know which happened first. Other than video replay. Just unlucky, IMO, both of you were focused on your primarys and doing your jobs. Maybe it takes a third set of eyes to get this play right.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
[/B]

I can understand you hearing your partner's whistle and knowing that the try had been released at that time, but if you didn't see the foul and if the whistle lagged the foul a fair bit, there is no way that you could know for sure the location of the ball at the time of the foul. The ball could have still been in A1's hands at the time of the foul, but he then released it before the whistle was sounded by your partner. If that was the case, you guys did not get the play correct.

[/B][/QUOTE]Why are you second-guessing a judgement call, Nevada? Josh and his partner had to determine whether to count the basket or not by using the best information that they had available. They got together and did that. End of story! Of course, there was a chance that they might have been wrong,but they still had to make a call, one way or the other, didn't they? That wasn't the point of Josh's post anyway. The point was to confirm whether they were right to allow Team B to run the end line after they counted the basket. They got that ruling right, which was a good call on their part.

The point that you and Mark are trying to make might be useful as an adjunct to the call that actually made, but it's only really relevant as a "what if".

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Josh Ovens
then he came back and asked me and i told him the ball already left the shooters hand. [/B]

JR,
You're right about the endline aspect, of course, and I'll agree that Josh and his partner had to make the best call with what they had. We all have to do this, these are the calls that they pay us to make.
I'm only trying to probe a little deeper into his statement above. When he said that the ball already left the shooter's hand, it made me wonder two things.
1. did he mean the ball had left before the foul occurred or before he heard the whistle?
2. on what was he basing this statement? His actual sight of the foul or upon hearing his partner's whistle to call it.

I think it is a tough call, especially in two-man, and I merely was trying to find out exactly what he meant by the above statement, and possibly give him something to think about if a similar situation comes up again.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
[/B]

I think it is a tough call, especially in two-man, and I merely was trying to find out exactly what he meant by the above statement, and possibly give him something to think about if a similar situation comes up again.

[/B][/QUOTE]You're right, Nevada. It is a tough call in two-man. Josh and his partner found that out- fer sure. My point was that there wasn't really any better alternative to the way that that they handled the initial part of the call- which was whether or not to count the basket. They got together and made their ruling based on the best information that they had available.Someone else might have a better alternative, but I sure can't think of one.

[footlocker]

JR-good point.

This is a typical referee answer though. A ref will ask a question about a rule (i.e. runing the end line). Then Mr. Senior Official will complicate the scenario by questioning another aspect of the situation that is really not the point. Way too typical.

In two posts the question was asked and answered completely.