Player control fouls

[dave30]

What do you do if you work with a partner who almost always calls the block on the defense and you would have called it a player control foul? Then when you get the same call, you go with the offensive foul and the coach jumps on you for not being consistent. Some newer referees for some reason tend to be hesitant to call offensive fouls in my opinion. I can't overrule my co-official, but I'm not going to change the way I call the game either. What should I do in this situation?

[crazy voyager]

get in, get done, get out

that one always works

it really isn't much you can do, you can talk to your partner in half time, but it's something for he and his mentor to work on, you can't really do much about it. And you mention it's often newer referees, and I agree new refs rarley call offensive fouls, but we have all been new, excperience and mentoring will hopfully solve the problem, it's nothing you can solve right away anyway, talk in halftime, if that doesn't work, call the game and get out, leave it for his mentor

[Chess Ref]

Hang in there. i am one of those newer refs who DEFINTELY struggles with that call. I easily call more blocks thans PC fouls. I am working on it by attempting to ref the defense. I think just the fact that I stink at this call has helped me alot. At my level I just call my game and let my partner call his.

Partner consistent + me inconsistent =coach unhappy

Partner inconsistent + me consistent = coach unhappy

Both of us consistent = coach unhappy

Both of us inconsistent = coach unhappy

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

Hang in there. i am one of those newer refs who DEFINTELY struggles with that call. I easily call more blocks thans PC fouls. I am working on it by attempting to ref the defense. I think just the fact that I stink at this call has helped me alot. At my level I just call my game and let my partner call his.

Partner consistent + me inconsistent =coach unhappy

Partner inconsistent + me consistent = coach unhappy

Both of us consistent = coach unhappy

Both of us inconsistent = coach unhappy

Some of the time, that pretty well sums it up. We can all strive to become better officials, but none of us can help coaches to become better officials.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by dave30

What do you do if you work with a partner who almost always calls the block on the defense and you would have called it a player control foul? Then when you get the same call, you go with the offensive foul and the coach jumps on you for not being consistent. Some newer referees for some reason tend to be hesitant to call offensive fouls in my opinion. I can't overrule my co-official, but I'm not going to change the way I call the game either. What should I do in this situation?

You - "Coach, I understand you're frustrated. It was definitely a charge from my position. Hang in there - you'll get the same call if the same play happens again."

Coach - "The same play happened on the other end and he called it a block!"

You - "Coach, my partner had a much better look than either of us did. Why don't you ask him what he saw? I'm sure he can explain why it was a good call."

Acknowledge him, empathize, encourage, respect his opinion, & reinforce your partners call and credibility.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Some of the time, that pretty well sums it up. We can all strive to become better officials, but none of us can help coaches to become better officials.

Sometimes they listen. Had a game once where V1 gets sandwiched between 2 players H2 from behind blocks shot. May or may not have been contact but my partner had no whistle. Come back down court and and H1 gets double teamed in post and V2 blocks shot from behind with slight contact. I have no whistle. Immediately after there is a time-out and H-coach comes to complaining about my no-call. I say "Coach, we had the same play on the other end and we didn't have a foul on your team either." He looks at me, nods his head, and goes back to his huddle.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Sometimes they listen. Had a game once where V1 gets sandwiched between 2 players H2 from behind blocks shot. May or may not have been contact but my partner had no whistle. Come back down court and and H1 gets double teamed in post and V2 blocks shot from behind with slight contact. I have no whistle. Immediately after there is a time-out and H-coach comes to complaining about my no-call. I say "Coach, we had the same play on the other end and we didn't have a foul on your team either." He looks at me, nods his head, and goes back to his huddle.

The line that always seems to end the conversation quickly is: "Coach, you'll get that same call at the other end". Just as in your example, it speaks directly to consistency - which is what all coaches want.

Here's another: "Coach, we haven't called that a foul all night. You're getting a consistent game from us."

[deecee]

You - "Coach, I understand you're frustrated. It was definitely a charge from my position. Hang in there - you'll get the same call if the same play happens again."

Jeff i disagree with this -- why would you tell a coach that it was definitley a charge from your position (you are letting your partner out to dry) -- if you have a charge either get together with your partner or let him handle it -- and dont tell a coach that you will call a charge a block or vice versa to stay consistant -- any coach worth half his weigth in sand will have a field day with you on this one. just my opinion

[Junker]

Originally Posted by deecee

Jeff i disagree with this -- why would you tell a coach that it was definitley a charge from your position (you are letting your partner out to dry) -- if you have a charge either get together with your partner or let him handle it -- and dont tell a coach that you will call a charge a block or vice versa to stay consistant -- any coach worth half his weigth in sand will have a field day with you on this one. just my opinion

Jeff was talking about after you call a charge, not hanging a partner out. I had to reread that one myself.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Sometimes they listen. Had a game once where V1 gets sandwiched between 2 players H2 from behind blocks shot. May or may not have been contact but my partner had no whistle. Come back down court and and H1 gets double teamed in post and V2 blocks shot from behind with slight contact. I have no whistle. Immediately after there is a time-out and H-coach comes to complaining about my no-call. I say "Coach, we had the same play on the other end and we didn't have a foul on your team either." He looks at me, nods his head, and goes back to his huddle.

Was the visiting team's nickname the 'Rockets'?

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by deecee

Jeff i disagree with this -- why would you tell a coach that it was definitley a charge from your position (you are letting your partner out to dry) -- if you have a charge either get together with your partner or let him handle it -- and dont tell a coach that you will call a charge a block or vice versa to stay consistant -- any coach worth half his weigth in sand will have a field day with you on this one. just my opinion

Deecee - my hypothetical conversation with the coach occurred after "I" called the charge. He was complaining about "my" call in relation to "my partners" call at the other end of the floor. Try reading the post again from that perspective - it will make more sense to you then.

I NEVER directly comment on my partners call - "coach, he had a much better look than I did"; "coach, that's a really good official over there"; "coach, we talked about that exact play in our pre-game/halftime"; "I made the same call two minutes ago".... you get the idea.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dave30

What do you do if you work with a partner who almost always calls the block on the defense and you would have called it a player control foul? Then when you get the same call, you go with the offensive foul and the coach jumps on you for not being consistent. Some newer referees for some reason tend to be hesitant to call offensive fouls in my opinion. I can't overrule my co-official, but I'm not going to change the way I call the game either. What should I do in this situation?

All you can do is call your game. I do not call my game to be a 100% perfect with my partner. In many cases I probably did not see my partner's call. So you cannot just make a call only to match your partner. What you could do is if there is doubt or the plays are close you might call similar things. I just do not think this is an automatic to make the same call just because your partner called a block on one end.

Peace

[Texas Aggie]

>>Coach, I understand you're frustrated. It was definitely a charge from my position.<<

Don't EVER hang your partner out to dry. You are asking for serious problems and you could be WRONG. I have a hard time believing you wouldn't mind him saying the same thing to the coach about one of your calls.

I had a playoff game where my partner and I made it clear in pregame that we would come in on an out of bounds call if we thought the other guy had it wrong (and the calling official would change the call), but only if we were "110% sure." At half time, he told me I missed one, and I asked him why he didn't come in. He said he wasn't "110% sure" so he didn't. I said its a good thing he didn't because it went off a player's shorts, and he didn't see it and didn't know I saw it.

My point is that while we do blow it and we do see what we believe are incorrect calls, you need to have a discussion with the calling official before a firm determination can be made that its wrong. Telling a coach he's wrong when you may not have the full info is unprofessional in my opinion.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

>>Coach, I understand you're frustrated. It was definitely a charge from my position.<<

Don't EVER hang your partner out to dry. You are asking for serious problems and you could be WRONG. I have a hard time believing you wouldn't mind him saying the same thing to the coach about one of your calls.

I had a playoff game where my partner and I made it clear in pregame that we would come in on an out of bounds call if we thought the other guy had it wrong (and the calling official would change the call), but only if we were "110% sure." At half time, he told me I missed one, and I asked him why he didn't come in. He said he wasn't "110% sure" so he didn't. I said its a good thing he didn't because it went off a player's shorts, and he didn't see it and didn't know I saw it.

My point is that while we do blow it and we do see what we believe are incorrect calls, you need to have a discussion with the calling official before a firm determination can be made that its wrong. Telling a coach he's wrong when you may not have the full info is unprofessional in my opinion.

Slow down Aggie...His post was poorly stated. If you read it carefully you'll perhaps see that he was not commenting on a partner's call in that statement but his own call. I think that such a statement about your own call is entirely acceptable.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

>>Coach, I understand you're frustrated. It was definitely a charge from my position.<<

Don't EVER hang your partner out to dry. You are asking for serious problems and you could be WRONG. I have a hard time believing you wouldn't mind him saying the same thing to the coach about one of your calls.

My point is that while we do blow it and we do see what we believe are incorrect calls, you need to have a discussion with the calling official before a firm determination can be made that its wrong. Telling a coach he's wrong when you may not have the full info is unprofessional in my opinion.

As a communication major in college, I cite the responses to my initial post (and my initial post) as a perfect example of why email & chat rooms are poor methods of communication......

To clear up my viewpoint - here's the hypothetical situation: I have just called a player control foul on Team A; Team A's coach starts to complain to me about the call since my partner had just called a block on Team A on the previous possession; the following hypothetical exchange occurs:

Me - "Coach, I understand you're frustrated. It was definitely a charge from my position. Hang in there - you'll get the same call if the same play happens again."

Coach - "The same play happened on the other end and he called it a block!"

Me - "Coach, my partner had a much better look than either of us did. Why don't you ask him what he saw? I'm sure he can explain why it was a good call."

I give this example to illustrate how I communicate with the coach to explain/defend my call and support my partner without directly commenting on his call. I do not believe in "selling out", "undermining", or "hanging out my partner to dry" .

I'm sorry if my original post was unclear. Hopefully this clarifies my thoughts and provides one example of how I handle this situation.