LSU/Stanford charge (Women's)

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In the past year or so I have been pregaming this type of play. The one in which A1 beats B1 with the dribble and B2 comes over to defend and there is a crash. Whose responsibility is the secondary defender?

I've stated that while one official, in this case the Trail, could have A1 and B1 in his primary when the play starts and then stay with those two players, another official, in this case the Lead, has the secondary defender, B2, in his primary the whole time. This other official is then the one watching that defender. Therefore, it makes sense that this other official would have the best knowledge of the secondary defender's positioning. Since it is this defender and not B1 who is invovled in the crash with the offensive player, I've been advocating that we let the official from whose primary the secondary defender comes make the decision on the play.

So in this case I would have prefered the Lead make the call. The Lead has the best idea of whether or not that defender got there in time. The T was focused on the dribbler and her initial defender which is no longer in the play.
That is how I have been pregaming it lately.

Of course, if the Lead doesn't make a call for some odd reason and needs help, then the T is the helper and should come get it.


Lastly, this was in an NCAA womens' game and I know that NCAAW floor coverage is different and that could have mattered on this play as the Lead is responsible for that 3pt shooter in the corner. I don't care for this, but that is the way they do it.

JMO, but I thought it would have been a better no call. In talking with a D1 ref/friend of mine and something that I cover during pre-game, it is a general rule of thumb not to reward a player for attempting to draw a PC foul on a player that no longer has the ball. The only caveat to the play is an offensive player that is still going strong into the defense and doesn't slow/attempt to stop. I would go so far to say that is not a call that was made alot at that level.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

The only caveat to the play is an offensive player that is still going strong into the defense and doesn't slow/attempt to stop.

I don't know what a caveat is, but as I read this thread I had been thinking that this was significant, not from the standpoint of rules, but just a matter of the official's perception of the play. Had Wiggins made any attempt to stop or at least angle off the contact, thus making it less severe, perhaps we have a no call. But in this case from either official's perspective we have an offensive player that runs completely through the defender. I thought Augustus did lean away from the contact slightly, but it was still severe enough that it was not what I call a flop by any means. Having said all that, I have slept since all this happened. If/when I see this replay again, my perception may be different. Meanwhile, I thought the block call on the big girl from Duke late in the game was incorrect. She seemed to be there in time, certainly no flop in this case. You could read the Duke coach's lips: "What'd she do?"

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

JMO, but I thought it would have been a better no call. In talking with a D1 ref/friend of mine and something that I cover during pre-game, it is a general rule of thumb not to reward a player for attempting to draw a PC foul on a player that no longer has the ball. The only caveat to the play is an offensive player that is still going strong into the defense and doesn't slow/attempt to stop. I would go so far to say that is not a call that was made alot at that level.

A general rule of thumb? It is? Never heard that one before. Oh well, guess that's why I'm not a D1 guy. I have to wonder where people come up with some of this stuff. There is more than one way to play defense. 1. stay with the shooter/ don't allow that player to receive the ball or try to block the shot 2. step in and take a charge from the dribbler/passer.
Both are legitimate but different methods of playing defense. Why is it suddenly up to the official to decide which tactic the team has to use?

Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops

I TIVO'ed the game and watched the play over and over. I feel that in that situation in the game (less than 5 seconds) you have to let the players decided the game. I saw Augustus falling back before contact was ever made. She obviously excentuated the contact. The lead never made an effort to make the call and the play was less than 3 feet away. Also the ball was already out of Wiggins hands before contact occurred. IMO you gotta pass on that one and let players decided the game. Certain calls have to be made at the end of a game, but I feel that this call was kicked.

This one is even worse. In fact, it is such garbage that I am eagerly waiting for JR to show up and see it. I'm going to go make my popcorn now. He'll probably tell you to quit officiating and go coach. Actually, I'll tell you that myself. Ignoring fouls late in the game is not "letting the players decide the outcome." It's failing to do your job properly and screwing the offended team.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A general rule of thumb? It is? Never heard that one before. Oh well, guess that's why I'm not a D1 guy. I have to wonder where people come up with some of this stuff. There is more than one way to play defense. 1. stay with the shooter/ don't allow that player to receive the ball or try to block the shot 2. step in and take a charge from the dribbler/passer.
Both are legitimate but different methods of playing defense. Why is it suddenly up to the official to decide which tactic the team has to use?





This one is even worse. In fact, it is such garbage that I am eagerly waiting for JR to show up and see it. I'm going to go make my popcorn now. He'll probably tell you to quit officiating and go coach. Actually, I'll tell you that myself. Ignoring fouls late in the game is not "letting the players decide the outcome." It's failing to do your job properly and screwing the offended team.

I appreciate your respect of my opinion, very classy individual you are. Your "my crap dont stink attitude" is very pleasant. Ignoring fouls late in the game is not what I said...it's what you say to make your argument stronger. I said that in late game situations that players should be allowed to decide games. It goes back about 5 weeks ago to the Sheldon Williams no call at the end of the FSU game. I thought it was a foul. There was obvious body contact, but the official chose to pass on it. Why? Situation, last 5 sec. of the game. I guess your going to call the slightly displacing hand check with 3 sec. to go in the NCAA Regional semis too huh? Get real. Augustus was leaning away from the contact (already in flop mode), not to mention the fact that the ball was already gone. This is one IMO (note to jackass MY OPINION) that could/should have been passed on.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops

I said that in late game situations that players should be allowed to decide games. It goes back about 5 weeks ago to the Sheldon Williams no call at the end of the FSU game. I thought it was a foul. There was obvious body contact, but the official chose to pass on it. Why? Situation, last 5 sec. of the game. I guess your going to call the slightly displacing hand check with 3 sec. to go in the NCAA Regional semis too huh? Get real. Augustus was leaning away from the contact (already in flop mode), not to mention the fact that the ball was already gone. This is one IMO (note to jackass MY OPINION) that could/should have been passed on.

Now my opinion......

You're wrong and I disagree completely with your philosophy.

You should call something in the last 5 seconds of a game the same way that you called it in the first 39 minutes and 55 seconds. Iow, if it's a foul all game, then it's a foul at the end. To call it any other way is ridiculous imo. And you're not letting the players decide the game either; you're deciding the game by not calling a foul if one occurs. Jmo, but most officials who use that "let the players decide the game" argument are officials who lack the testicular fortitude to make the tough call at the end of a game and use that argument as a cop-out.

As for the Augustus call, I didn't see it so I can't really comment. I will say that "leaning away" from the contact does not constitute an automatic no-call or a "flop". A defender is allowed to protect themselves....and that protection includes leaning away to lessen contact. A "flop" is faking a foul with little or no contact. If a defender with LGP leans away from the contact and still gets run over, that's a legitimate charge.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Now my opinion......

You're wrong and I disagree completely with your philosophy.

You should call something in the last 5 seconds of a game the same way that you called it in the first 39 minutes and 55 seconds. Iow, if it's a foul all game, then it's a foul at the end. To call it any other way is ridiculous imo. And you're not letting the players decide the game either; you're deciding the game by not calling a foul if one occurs. Jmo, but most officials who use that "let the players decide the game" argument are officials who lack the testicular fortitude to make the tough call at the end of a game and use that argument as a cop-out.

As for the Augustus call, I didn't see it so I can't really comment. I will say that "leaning away" from the contact does not constitute an automatic no-call or a "flop". A defender is allowed to protect themselves....and that protection includes leaning away to lessen contact. A "flop" is faking a foul with little or no contact. If a defender with LGP leans away from the contact and still gets run over, that's a legitimate charge.

Again that is completely your OPINION. As for the testicular fortitude comment, you know where you can cram that. We are speaking of and to the LSU game, so if you didnt see the play or call then why open your big mouth? The L who was standing right in front of the play obiously saw the play the same way I saw it.....some contact, a little acting, and a pass that had already been made making it an away from the ball foul. The L, who's call it was, chose to pass. However, my take on you, I guess, along with the official who made the call is that you like the spotlight. You like to tweet on your whistle and make the "game changing call." Some officials like the limelight, others see more (ie. magnitude of the game, situation, severity). If Wiggins had been going to the basket in an attempt to score then yes, I could live with a charge being called at that point in a game of that magnitude. However, the ball was already in the hands of the shooter, when the contact occurred and the whistle blew. That call allowed LSU to advance. The Rutgers shooter continued with the shot and knocked it down. Please dont comment on things you havent seen. And further you too are generalizing my statement. My statement was that players should be allowed to decide games, not that it's no holds barred, anything goes in the last few sec. of a game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops

As for the testicular fortitude comment, you know where you can cram that.

We are speaking of and to the LSU game, so if you didnt see the play or call then why open your big mouth?

However, my take on you, I guess, along with the official who made the call is that you like the spotlight. You like to tweet on your whistle and make the "game changing call."

OK, how about this then, seeing as I deliberately tried to stay away from name-calling in my first post?

You're a clueless jerk that doesn't know one damn thing about officiating. You also got no balls if you're afraid to blow your whistle at the end of a game.

That's my take on you.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

OK, how about this then, seeing as I deliberately tried to stay away from name-calling in my first post?

You're a clueless jerk that doesn't know one damn thing about officiating. You also got no balls if you're afraid to blow your whistle at the end of a game.

That's my take on you.

Thats cute!! You tried to stay away from name calling??? LOL. Thats funny. Your idea of staying away from name calling is telling people that choose not to make a call in a certain situation that they have no testicular fortitude. Thats funny. I guess the L in the Regional Semis of the NCAA tourny has none then, buy you do.

I respect your opinion on the matter. It's obvious that by throwing around words like testicular fortitude or lack thereof that you dont respect mine. This entire post was addressing a particular call in a particular game, which you never saw. So explain why you feel the need to interject your opinion as being correct and those opposing have NO BALLS, when you have no F'in idea what we are talking about????

As for my take on YOU. You are the guy who loves the limelight. Your the one dictating the game with YOUR whistle. If there is a controversial call, YOUR the guy to make it. YOUR the guy that both coaches dislike and the fans are always yelling at. WHY?? B/c you love the attention. It's much needed b/c you sucked when you played and never received any. It's your CHANCE TO BE SEEN AND HEARD!! It's cool there are more like YOU.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

OK, how about this then, seeing as I deliberately tried to stay away from name-calling in my first post?

You're a clueless jerk that doesn't know one damn thing about officiating. You also got no balls if you're afraid to blow your whistle at the end of a game.

That's my take on you.

U da Man, JR!!! I knew I could count on you to put this pipsqueak in his place.

He still doesn't get it though. He thinks that we are on his case because he doesn't think that was a PC foul. If that is the way he feels when seeing the play, that's just fine with me. The problem is his REASON for believing that. His reason is total garbage and if he really uses that kind of justification for his officiating decisions then he has no business being a basketball official.

And Nate, whether JR saw the play or not, he can still comment on the reasoning that you posted. It is pretty clear what he thinks of that.

Lastly, you chastise JR for not seeing the play, but posting in this thread,

Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops

Please dont comment on things you havent seen.

but you who saw the play and know everything about it can't even get the two teams who were involved correct. You have repeatedly posted Rutgers.

Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops

Decisions just like the one made in the LSU vs. Rutgers game...

Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops

The Rutgers shooter continued with the shot and knocked it down. Please dont comment on things you havent seen.

Funny, I don't recall seeing Rutgers play LSU in the tourney this year, and neither do you! Get it right! STANFORD was LSU's opponent in the game under discussion. Rutgers lost to Tennessee in Cleveland. Or you could follow your own advice and not comment on things you haven't seen.

PS You need some grammar lessons. The spell check can't cover for you there.

Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops

Your the one dictating the game with YOUR whistle. If there is a controversial call, YOUR the guy to make it. YOUR the guy that both coaches dislike and the fans are always yelling at.