The magic number

[JRutledge]

I agree with M&M on this one. I do not trust the shot clock operators. Also why would you do this with only a shot clock? Anyone can count the game clock and come to a similar conclusion. This is why your count should be close to real time as possible. All you need to do is practice and you can be very close if not right on with your counts.

Peace

[Brad]

I use the shot clock because that is what the coaches and everyone else is looking at. You're welcome to call a 10-second violation with 26 on the shot clock, but there is no way that I would. If there is a problem with the table being slow to start I would address that seperately.

I stand corrected on the shot clock issue... If the shot clock is at 25 it means that 10 seconds has elapsed (at least it should mean that on most clocks -- at the D2/D3/JuCo level you never know!)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Brad

I use the shot clock because that is what the coaches and everyone else is looking at. You're welcome to call a 10-second violation with 26 on the shot clock, but there is no way that I would. If there is a problem with the table being slow to start I would address that seperately.

I stand corrected on the shot clock issue... If the shot clock is at 25 it means that 10 seconds has elapsed (at least it should mean that on most clocks -- at the D2/D3/JuCo level you never know!)

Well it did not matter in the National Championship game where the shot clock read 25 seconds and Florida got a timeout. Also the official that made the call that sparked this discussion did not come in and make the National Championship game. So there must be some reason he did not make this call again. The shot clock had 10 seconds come off and no violation was called.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Brad

I use the shot clock because that is what the coaches and everyone else is looking at. You're welcome to call a 10-second violation with 26 on the shot clock, but there is no way that I would. If there is a problem with the table being slow to start I would address that seperately.

I stand corrected on the shot clock issue... If the shot clock is at 25 it means that 10 seconds has elapsed (at least it should mean that on most clocks -- at the D2/D3/JuCo level you never know!)

You're right, if there's a problem with the clock, it should be addressed as soon as possible; not after 9 or 10 seconds has elapsed. And, in most situations, your count and the shot clock should coincide, so I've got a lot of explainin' to do if I call it with 26 showing. But I'm just leery in telling people to rely on the clock to determine the violation, because there are possible differences.

Besides, I'd be willing to go all-in on the fact that the vast majority of all officials have too slow of a 10-sec. count, including me. You got enough chips to cover the bet?

[tomegun]

It is possible for .1 second to come off the clock between the coach calling the timeout and the official granting the timeout; some time probably should come off.
I didn't see the questionable timeout in the championship game, but is it possible this happened? If so, there is the answer to that one. If that wasn't the case, everybody - including (gasp!) a national championship official - can make a mistake. Did Howland have a legitimate beef? He probably did.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

It is possible for .1 second to come off the clock between the coach calling the timeout and the official granting the timeout; some time probably should come off.
I didn't see the questionable timeout in the championship game, but is it possible this happened? If so, there is the answer to that one. If that wasn't the case, everybody - including (gasp!) a national championship official - can make a mistake. Did Howland have a legitimate beef? He probably did.

It is very possible. I just know that to my knowledge there was not changing of the shot clock and no violation after the timeout was called. Or it is possible that the NCAA addressed Burr's earlier call and said that was not supposed to be made by the C official in the manner it was made during the tournament. After all the rules and mechanics say that the official's count is what matters. I have never read anywhere it says the shot clock or clock is the factor. This is all speculation on my part.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Or it is possible that the NCAA addressed Burr's earlier call and said that was not supposed to be made by the C official in the manner it was made during the tournament. After all the rules and mechanics say that the official's count is what matters. I have never read anywhere it says the shot clock or clock is the factor. This is all speculation on my part.
Peace

JRut,

I'm not aware of the Burr incident you are referring to. What happened in that situation?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

JRut,

I'm not aware of the Burr incident you are referring to. What happened in that situation?

I did not see the play myself. I am only referring to what was stated. Apparently in one of the Regional Semi-Final, Jim Burr called a 10 second violation from the C position based on the shot clock. I guess the commentators made reference to this being the right call based on what the shot clock said. This situation was the main reason this conversation started as to philosophy and common sense.

I hope I did not leave anything out.

Peace

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well it did not matter in the National Championship game where the shot clock read 25 seconds and Florida got a timeout. Also the official that made the call that sparked this discussion did not come in and make the National Championship game. So there must be some reason he did not make this call again.

Or it is possible that the NCAA addressed Burr's earlier call and said that was not supposed to be made by the C official in the manner it was made during the tournament.

I'm sure there is a reason, but like you, I would just be guessing about it. It is certainly possible that somebody said to Burr not to make that call anymore. But I doubt that. As I said, this is taught at camps and (I thought, at least) generally accepted. Obviously, I could be wrong.

It's also possible that Tom's suggestion is right. Maybe there was a small lag time issue. But then, as you suggest, I might expect an adjustment to the shot clock.

It's also possible that Burr just didn't notice it this time until after the TO was granted. I didn't see the play, but if the ball was fairly close to him and there was pressure (which I'm assuming, since he had to call the TO), then maybe he couldn't take his eyes away to check the clock.

As I said, all guesses. We'll never know unless somebody gets to ask Mr. Burr about it at a camp this summer.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

I'm sure there is a reason, but like you, I would just be guessing about it. It is certainly possible that somebody said to Burr not to make that call anymore. But I doubt that. As I said, this is taught at camps and (I thought, at least) generally accepted. Obviously, I could be wrong.

I know some people are going to get mad when I say this. I have never been taught this at any college camp I have been to. Now you live mostly on the East Coast and that could be the difference. Also many of the college games I have attended also do not have a shot clock working during those games. That could be a factor. Usually the games are HS teams so there would not be any shot clock present. Also even the pre-season Jamborees and scrimmages many times do not have a shot clock involved either. So you do not see this going on before the season. I just have never been told to use the shot clock as your guide as an exception to your vision count.

Peace