The magic number

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I know many don't like the NBA, but this came up in a Pro-Am meeting last night.

What should the shot clock normally (out of bounds after made basket) say to call a violation?

1. NCAA - 25
2. NCAA - 24

*According to the rule, the NBA should be called differently besides the fact that the shot clock is different.

3. None of the above. The official's count is the count that matters.

I choose #3.

But, the shot clock is set up differently than game clocks. The horn goes off the same moment the shot clock shows 0. There is no delay like with a game clock that shows :00 but doesn't show tenths. So, while the shot clock is showing 1, it's actually at .9, .8, .7, etc. When it shows 35, it could be 34.9, 34.8, etc. That's why the rule says on a re-set on a kicked ball, reset it to 15 even if it says 15, because it's actually at 14.9, 14.8, 14.1, etc.

So, if you were to use the shot clock as an indicator of a 10-sec. violation, the violation occurs when the clock shows 25.

35 = 0 sec.
34 = 1 sec.
33 = 2 sec.
.
.
25 = 10 sec.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

3. None of the above. The official's count is the count that matters.

I defy you to call a 10-second violation with 26 left on the shot clock because "your count" was at 10. A good dose of common sense goes a long way on this one.

The shot clock is 35 seconds - that is, 35.0. Thus, when the clock starts it immediately goes to 34 and remains on 34 for the entire duration of 34.9-34.0.

Thus, when the clock shows 25 seconds it could be anywhere from 25.0-25.9. Only in the case of the clock being exactly at 25.0 would there technically be a shot clock violation.

Thus, 9 times out of 10 (25.9 through 25.1) there has NOT been a violation (you could actually argue 99 out of 100 if you wanted to include hundreths - but let's keep it simple). So you have a 10% chance that the 25 showing on the clock is exactly 10 seconds and a violation has occurred.

Thus, there is a 90% chance that there has not been a violation.

I'd go all-in with those odds.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Brad

The shot clock is 35 seconds - that is, 35.0. Thus, when the clock starts it immediately goes to 34 and remains on 34 for the entire duration of 34.9-34.0.

If this were true, then the clock would show 0 for a whole second before the horn sounded. It doesn't do that. It hits 0 and the horn sounds simultaneously. That's because when the clock reads 0, it is 0. Not 0.9.

When the clock shows 25, 10 seconds have elapsed. Why is this so hard to accept?

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

If this were true, then the clock would show 0 for a whole second before the horn sounded. It doesn't do that. It hits 0 and the horn sounds simultaneously. That's because when the clock reads 0, it is 0. Not 0.9.

When the clock shows 25, 10 seconds have elapsed. Why is this so hard to accept?

Not true. I had a game where the clock showed zero and the horn had not gone off after the ball went out of bounds. We went to the scorer's table and the panel (box) at the scorer's table showed 0.3 (the panel had tenths but the clock did not). The game was not over so we administered the throw-in and we played til' the horn went off.

Z

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I had a game where the clock showed zero and the horn had not gone off after the ball went out of bounds. We went to the scorer's table and the panel (box) at the scorer's table showed 0.3

Shot clocks do not operate this way. The shot clock horn sounds when the 0 is displayed.

[Brad]

That is a good point Chuck ... although somehow that still doesn't seem right. OK... Now you have me doubting my answer... I will do some more research on this.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Brad

I defy you to call a 10-second violation with 26 left on the shot clock because "your count" was at 10. A good dose of common sense goes a long way on this one.

The shot clock is 35 seconds - that is, 35.0. Thus, when the clock starts it immediately goes to 34 and remains on 34 for the entire duration of 34.9-34.0.

Thus, when the clock shows 25 seconds it could be anywhere from 25.0-25.9. Only in the case of the clock being exactly at 25.0 would there technically be a shot clock violation.

Thus, 9 times out of 10 (25.9 through 25.1) there has NOT been a violation (you could actually argue 99 out of 100 if you wanted to include hundreths - but let's keep it simple). So you have a 10% chance that the 25 showing on the clock is exactly 10 seconds and a violation has occurred.

Thus, there is a 90% chance that there has not been a violation.

I'd go all-in with those odds.

I'll call. What'ya got?

I guess the point I was trying to make with my statement you quoted, was the fact that my count does matter, and it may not agree with the shot clock and/or game clock. I guess my feelings come from working mostly JUCO and D3, where the tables aren't necessarily the greatest. In fact, there was one D3 game last year where our crew had to stop play and correct either the shot clock or game clock nine different times during the course of the game. So I have learned to not fully trust clocks and their operators. What if the table is busy eating popcorn and doesn't start the shot clock right away, like say, for 2 sec.? If you have your count, you could very well be at 10 on your count, while the shot clock could show 26 or 27. Your explanation to the coach is simple - apparently the clock didn't start right away, but I had definite knowledge from my count.

Let's look at a HS situation: say there's 12 sec. left in the quarter, and A has the ball for a throw-in in their back court. The throw-in gets tipped by B, the clock starts, A finally tracks the ball down and starts slowly up court, and the horn goes off while A is still in the back court. Obviously B's coach will argue there was a violation because 12 sec. ran off the clock while A was in the backcourt, so they should get the ball with 2 sec. put back on the clock. But you know your count was only at 9, because the count didn't start until A had posession, not when the clock started 3 seconds earlier.

I've always felt it's dangerous to rely on the clock for your counts, both because operators can be unreliable, and different rule sets determine different starting points on game clocks, shot clocks, and counts. Maybe at the higher levels, the clock operators are more accurate and reliable, and you can use them as a reference. But I'm not going to rely upon the clock as the sole basis for making my call.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, my experience with shot clocks is that the horn goes off the moment it hits 0, and doesn't change to 34 (or, in my case, to 29) until a second after it's turned on. So, even though it says 35, it could be 34.9, 34.5, or 34.1. It changes to 34 at 34.0. So 10 seconds has elapsed when it shows 25 (or in NCAAW, 20). That's different than game clocks that don't show 10th's, because the clock immediately clicks down to the next number when it's turned on, and shows 0 for a full second before the horn goes off.

[JRutledge]

I agree with M&M on this one. I do not trust the shot clock operators. Also why would you do this with only a shot clock? Anyone can count the game clock and come to a similar conclusion. This is why your count should be close to real time as possible. All you need to do is practice and you can be very close if not right on with your counts.

Peace

[Brad]

I use the shot clock because that is what the coaches and everyone else is looking at. You're welcome to call a 10-second violation with 26 on the shot clock, but there is no way that I would. If there is a problem with the table being slow to start I would address that seperately.

I stand corrected on the shot clock issue... If the shot clock is at 25 it means that 10 seconds has elapsed (at least it should mean that on most clocks -- at the D2/D3/JuCo level you never know!)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Brad

I use the shot clock because that is what the coaches and everyone else is looking at. You're welcome to call a 10-second violation with 26 on the shot clock, but there is no way that I would. If there is a problem with the table being slow to start I would address that seperately.

I stand corrected on the shot clock issue... If the shot clock is at 25 it means that 10 seconds has elapsed (at least it should mean that on most clocks -- at the D2/D3/JuCo level you never know!)

Well it did not matter in the National Championship game where the shot clock read 25 seconds and Florida got a timeout. Also the official that made the call that sparked this discussion did not come in and make the National Championship game. So there must be some reason he did not make this call again. The shot clock had 10 seconds come off and no violation was called.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Brad

I use the shot clock because that is what the coaches and everyone else is looking at. You're welcome to call a 10-second violation with 26 on the shot clock, but there is no way that I would. If there is a problem with the table being slow to start I would address that seperately.

I stand corrected on the shot clock issue... If the shot clock is at 25 it means that 10 seconds has elapsed (at least it should mean that on most clocks -- at the D2/D3/JuCo level you never know!)

You're right, if there's a problem with the clock, it should be addressed as soon as possible; not after 9 or 10 seconds has elapsed. And, in most situations, your count and the shot clock should coincide, so I've got a lot of explainin' to do if I call it with 26 showing. But I'm just leery in telling people to rely on the clock to determine the violation, because there are possible differences.

Besides, I'd be willing to go all-in on the fact that the vast majority of all officials have too slow of a 10-sec. count, including me. You got enough chips to cover the bet?

[tomegun]

It is possible for .1 second to come off the clock between the coach calling the timeout and the official granting the timeout; some time probably should come off.
I didn't see the questionable timeout in the championship game, but is it possible this happened? If so, there is the answer to that one. If that wasn't the case, everybody - including (gasp!) a national championship official - can make a mistake. Did Howland have a legitimate beef? He probably did.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

In fact, there was one D3 game last year where our crew had to stop play and correct either the shot clock or game clock nine different times during the course of the game.

We didn't have to correct it 9 times, but at one Juco game I did, I had to correct the game clock 3 seconds into the game. Yes, 3 seconds. Ball tossed, tapped legally and bounces OOB. Clock never stopped. Easy fix, at least.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

We didn't have to correct it 9 times, but at one Juco game I did, I had to correct the game clock 3 seconds into the game. Yes, 3 seconds. Ball tossed, tapped legally and bounces OOB. Clock never stopped. Easy fix, at least.

Each one of ours were relatively easy fixes as well, but it went well past annoying. The problem was the normal table crew was at the school's playoff football game, and the older gentleman that volunteered was having all sorts of problems. We tried to be as polite and professional as possible. But, after the crew got together to discuss the 5th or 6th problem, the poor guy was overheard saying to the scorekeepper, "I bet they're talkin' about me again..."

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

We didn't have to correct it 9 times, but at one Juco game I did, I had to correct the game clock 3 seconds into the game. Yes, 3 seconds. Ball tossed, tapped legally and bounces OOB. Clock never stopped. Easy fix, at least.

I once had a clock error 0 seconds into a D3 game.

Blew back a jump ball before it was touched to start the game. I looked up at the clock & saw that 2 seconds had come off.