The magic number

[tomegun]

I know many don't like the NBA, but this came up in a Pro-Am meeting last night.

What should the shot clock normally (out of bounds after made basket) say to call a violation?

1. NCAA - 25
2. NCAA - 24

*According to the rule, the NBA should be called differently besides the fact that the shot clock is different.

[AZ_REF]

Using the shot clock to gauge backcourt is a bad idea for a number or reasons. However it depends on the clock. If the clock ticks down at x.9, the first tick from 35 to 34 happens at .1 seconds. When the clock showed 25 there could be 25.9 seconds left.

If the click ticks at x.0, the first tick happens at 1 second. In this case 34.5 would read 35 still. At 25 there could be 24 to 24.99 seconds left in this case.

Locally we had the same discussion with the new reset rule on a kicked ball. One opnion was that if the shot clock read 15 we were to instruct the clock operator to reset it to 15 seconds. However this could be a bad idea due to the reasons outlined above. Hope my math makes sense to everybody.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by AZ_REF

Locally we had the same discussion with the new reset rule on a kicked ball. One opnion was that if the shot clock read 15 we were to instruct the clock operator to reset it to 15 seconds. However this could be a bad idea due to the reasons outlined above. Hope my math makes sense to everybody.

I don't see why this is an issue 1 way or the other. The rule tells us exactly what to do:

2-14-6f:
When an intentionally kicked ball occurs with 15 seconds or less
remaining, reset to 15 seconds.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I don't see why this is an issue 1 way or the other. The rule tells us exactly what to do:

2-14-6f:
When an intentionally kicked ball occurs with 15 seconds or less
remaining, reset to 15 seconds.

Right, and the reason the rule is written that way is because the shot clock (all shot clocks, afaik) work the way M&M said -- the "actual time" is equal to or fractions less than the time shown.

So, if the shot clock is used for BC violations, call it when the clock hits 25.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Right, and the reason the rule is written that way is because the shot clock (all shot clocks, afaik) work the way M&M said -- the "actual time" is equal to or fractions less than the time shown.

So, if the shot clock is used for BC violations, call it when the clock hits 25.

Oops, I didn't see M&Ms post before I posted mine. I agree 118% with him.

[jritchie]

i was going to say the same thing....if you notice the shot clock when it is reset, it doesn't change for one second....if it changed from 35 to 34 in 1 tenth then you would say 10 seconds would be 24.99....... but since it doesn't change from 35 to 34 for a whole second you can tell that they run differently than the game clocks.....so the 10 or 8 seconds will be actual time shown....25 ncaa and 16 for nba... thanks m&m for the explanation..i agree totally

[brianp134]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I know many don't like the NBA, but this came up in a Pro-Am meeting last night.

What should the shot clock normally (out of bounds after made basket) say to call a violation?

1. NCAA - 25
2. NCAA - 24

*According to the rule, the NBA should be called differently besides the fact that the shot clock is different.

I am in agreement with you that the shot-clock should be 24 for NCAA men & 15 for NBA.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I know many don't like the NBA, but this came up in a Pro-Am meeting last night.

What should the shot clock normally (out of bounds after made basket) say to call a violation?

1. NCAA - 25
2. NCAA - 24

*According to the rule, the NBA should be called differently besides the fact that the shot clock is different.

3. None of the above. The official's count is the count that matters.

I choose #3.

But, the shot clock is set up differently than game clocks. The horn goes off the same moment the shot clock shows 0. There is no delay like with a game clock that shows :00 but doesn't show tenths. So, while the shot clock is showing 1, it's actually at .9, .8, .7, etc. When it shows 35, it could be 34.9, 34.8, etc. That's why the rule says on a re-set on a kicked ball, reset it to 15 even if it says 15, because it's actually at 14.9, 14.8, 14.1, etc.

So, if you were to use the shot clock as an indicator of a 10-sec. violation, the violation occurs when the clock shows 25.

35 = 0 sec.
34 = 1 sec.
33 = 2 sec.
.
.
25 = 10 sec.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

3. None of the above. The official's count is the count that matters.

I defy you to call a 10-second violation with 26 left on the shot clock because "your count" was at 10. A good dose of common sense goes a long way on this one.

The shot clock is 35 seconds - that is, 35.0. Thus, when the clock starts it immediately goes to 34 and remains on 34 for the entire duration of 34.9-34.0.

Thus, when the clock shows 25 seconds it could be anywhere from 25.0-25.9. Only in the case of the clock being exactly at 25.0 would there technically be a shot clock violation.

Thus, 9 times out of 10 (25.9 through 25.1) there has NOT been a violation (you could actually argue 99 out of 100 if you wanted to include hundreths - but let's keep it simple). So you have a 10% chance that the 25 showing on the clock is exactly 10 seconds and a violation has occurred.

Thus, there is a 90% chance that there has not been a violation.

I'd go all-in with those odds.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Brad

The shot clock is 35 seconds - that is, 35.0. Thus, when the clock starts it immediately goes to 34 and remains on 34 for the entire duration of 34.9-34.0.

If this were true, then the clock would show 0 for a whole second before the horn sounded. It doesn't do that. It hits 0 and the horn sounds simultaneously. That's because when the clock reads 0, it is 0. Not 0.9.

When the clock shows 25, 10 seconds have elapsed. Why is this so hard to accept?

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

If this were true, then the clock would show 0 for a whole second before the horn sounded. It doesn't do that. It hits 0 and the horn sounds simultaneously. That's because when the clock reads 0, it is 0. Not 0.9.

When the clock shows 25, 10 seconds have elapsed. Why is this so hard to accept?

Not true. I had a game where the clock showed zero and the horn had not gone off after the ball went out of bounds. We went to the scorer's table and the panel (box) at the scorer's table showed 0.3 (the panel had tenths but the clock did not). The game was not over so we administered the throw-in and we played til' the horn went off.

Z

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I had a game where the clock showed zero and the horn had not gone off after the ball went out of bounds. We went to the scorer's table and the panel (box) at the scorer's table showed 0.3

Shot clocks do not operate this way. The shot clock horn sounds when the 0 is displayed.

[Brad]

That is a good point Chuck ... although somehow that still doesn't seem right. OK... Now you have me doubting my answer... I will do some more research on this.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Brad

I defy you to call a 10-second violation with 26 left on the shot clock because "your count" was at 10. A good dose of common sense goes a long way on this one.

The shot clock is 35 seconds - that is, 35.0. Thus, when the clock starts it immediately goes to 34 and remains on 34 for the entire duration of 34.9-34.0.

Thus, when the clock shows 25 seconds it could be anywhere from 25.0-25.9. Only in the case of the clock being exactly at 25.0 would there technically be a shot clock violation.

Thus, 9 times out of 10 (25.9 through 25.1) there has NOT been a violation (you could actually argue 99 out of 100 if you wanted to include hundreths - but let's keep it simple). So you have a 10% chance that the 25 showing on the clock is exactly 10 seconds and a violation has occurred.

Thus, there is a 90% chance that there has not been a violation.

I'd go all-in with those odds.

I'll call. What'ya got?

I guess the point I was trying to make with my statement you quoted, was the fact that my count does matter, and it may not agree with the shot clock and/or game clock. I guess my feelings come from working mostly JUCO and D3, where the tables aren't necessarily the greatest. In fact, there was one D3 game last year where our crew had to stop play and correct either the shot clock or game clock nine different times during the course of the game. So I have learned to not fully trust clocks and their operators. What if the table is busy eating popcorn and doesn't start the shot clock right away, like say, for 2 sec.? If you have your count, you could very well be at 10 on your count, while the shot clock could show 26 or 27. Your explanation to the coach is simple - apparently the clock didn't start right away, but I had definite knowledge from my count.

Let's look at a HS situation: say there's 12 sec. left in the quarter, and A has the ball for a throw-in in their back court. The throw-in gets tipped by B, the clock starts, A finally tracks the ball down and starts slowly up court, and the horn goes off while A is still in the back court. Obviously B's coach will argue there was a violation because 12 sec. ran off the clock while A was in the backcourt, so they should get the ball with 2 sec. put back on the clock. But you know your count was only at 9, because the count didn't start until A had posession, not when the clock started 3 seconds earlier.

I've always felt it's dangerous to rely on the clock for your counts, both because operators can be unreliable, and different rule sets determine different starting points on game clocks, shot clocks, and counts. Maybe at the higher levels, the clock operators are more accurate and reliable, and you can use them as a reference. But I'm not going to rely upon the clock as the sole basis for making my call.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, my experience with shot clocks is that the horn goes off the moment it hits 0, and doesn't change to 34 (or, in my case, to 29) until a second after it's turned on. So, even though it says 35, it could be 34.9, 34.5, or 34.1. It changes to 34 at 34.0. So 10 seconds has elapsed when it shows 25 (or in NCAAW, 20). That's different than game clocks that don't show 10th's, because the clock immediately clicks down to the next number when it's turned on, and shows 0 for a full second before the horn goes off.

[JRutledge]

I agree with M&M on this one. I do not trust the shot clock operators. Also why would you do this with only a shot clock? Anyone can count the game clock and come to a similar conclusion. This is why your count should be close to real time as possible. All you need to do is practice and you can be very close if not right on with your counts.

Peace