The magic number

[ChuckElias]

Tom, if you feel it's a big deal, then knock yourself out. I didn't mean to touch a nerve. The answer just seems obvious to me and the angst about the question seems unnecessary. If you disagree, I'm not going to disparage you.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Tom, if you feel it's a big deal, then knock yourself out. I didn't mean to touch a nerve. The answer just seems obvious to me and the angst about the question seems unnecessary. If you disagree, I'm not going to disparage you.

It isn't a big deal. I don't understand your desire to call this thread silly considering other threads on the board. This is silly but:

"shut up"

"you shut up"

"no, you shut up"

isn't silly? At least when those types of posts happen, you don't call them silly.

Got it!

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by tomegun

It isn't a big deal. I don't understand your desire to call this thread silly considering other threads on the board.

Ah, got it. But those posts are supposed to be silly. That's the point. The posts in this thread agonizing over how long it takes for the clock to go from 35 to 34 are serious. That's the only difference.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Tom, if you feel it's a big deal, then knock yourself out. I didn't mean to touch a nerve. The answer just seems obvious to me and the angst about the question seems unnecessary. If you disagree, I'm not going to disparage you.

Chuck, I know you think that too much is being made of the subject, but this exact situation did occur in the National Chamipionship game. Ball in BC, fumble or loose ball of some type but no loss of team control, offensive player secures player control in BC, 25 seconds on the shot clock, FF official grants T-O. Ben Howlin wanted a 10-second violation. He was still making a fuss after the T-O and Tony Greene had to address him one more time before the subsequent throw-in.

I'm not interested in the whole "did .00005 click off the clock" discussion. I'm interested in the "25 second shows on the shot clock but there is no 10-second violation" scenario such as last night.

I'm of the opinion that my 10-second count determines the violation. Others believe that "25 seconds on the shot clock" indicates you should have a violation.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm of the opinion that my 10-second count determines the violation. Others believe that "25 seconds on the shot clock" indicates you should have a violation.

The fact is, IMHO, that both opinions are valid. By rule, your 10-second count determines the violation. And if the clock never starts, then your 10-second count is considered "definite knowledge" of how much time should be taken off the clock.

The other fact is that if you know the shot clock started correctly and team control was established immediately at the first touch, then when the shot clock shows 25, 10 seconds have elapsed, regardless of where your count is. In that situation, I believe (if you are aware of the shot clock) that you call the violation based on the clock.

There will be times when you know that the clock did not start properly. For example, after a made basket the ball is inbounded and you look up and see the clock already at 33. Obviously, the timer started the clock before it was inbounded. You can fix it or not (that's a different argument); but in that game, I would use my count exclusively since I know I can't rely on the timer.

So you are absolutely correct that your count is the determining factor by rule. But I think it is simply common sense to use the shot clock if you know that it is operating correctly.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

The other fact is that if you know the shot clock started correctly and team control was established immediately at the first touch, then when the shot clock shows 25, 10 seconds have elapsed, regardless of where your count is. In that situation, I believe (if you are aware of the shot clock) that you call the violation based on the clock

Thanks for your explanation...I had never really thought about it in those terms.

[tomegun]

So if someone else talks about it, it is silly. But, if Chuck gives detailed VALID information...

GOT IT!

[jeffpea]

Let's kill two birds with one stone and submit a new rule for 2006-2007:

ALL shot clocks MUST display the tenths of a second (i.e. 35.0, 34.9, 34.8, etc) AND the 10-sec violation will be called when a full :10 have elapsed as determined by the shot clock.

Now there will be no argument from any coaches, players, or officials that when the shot clock shows 25.5 remaining, everyone will know that only 9.5 seconds have elapsed (and therefore NO violation has occurred).

I hope everyone feels better now. Just like I tell my kids - "there's a solution to every problem"...

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

ALL shot clocks MUST display the tenths of a second (i.e. 35.0, 34.9, 34.8, etc) AND the 10-sec violation will be called when a full :10 have elapsed as determined by the shot clock.

But when it shows 25.0, does that mean that it's less than 25.1 but hasn't hit 25 yet? Maybe we should wait till it gets to 24.9.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by tomegun

So if someone else talks about it, it is silly. But, if Chuck anyone gives detailed VALID information...

GOT IT!

Now you got it.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

Let's kill two birds with one stone and submit a new rule for 2006-2007:

ALL shot clocks MUST display the tenths of a second (i.e. 35.0, 34.9, 34.8, etc) AND the 10-sec violation will be called when a full :10 have elapsed as determined by the shot clock.

Now there will be no argument from any coaches, players, or officials that when the shot clock shows 25.5 remaining, everyone will know that only 9.5 seconds have elapsed (and therefore NO violation has occurred).

I hope everyone feels better now. Just like I tell my kids - "there's a solution to every problem"...

So we should watch the clock instead of the play?
I just think that is a can of worms, as there is never perfect harmony with the chopping of time and the start of the clock.

[tomegun]

This is great. Argue about it enough and it will be second nature in a game.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

3. None of the above. The official's count is the count that matters.

I defy you to call a 10-second violation with 26 left on the shot clock because "your count" was at 10. A good dose of common sense goes a long way on this one.

The shot clock is 35 seconds - that is, 35.0. Thus, when the clock starts it immediately goes to 34 and remains on 34 for the entire duration of 34.9-34.0.

Thus, when the clock shows 25 seconds it could be anywhere from 25.0-25.9. Only in the case of the clock being exactly at 25.0 would there technically be a shot clock violation.

Thus, 9 times out of 10 (25.9 through 25.1) there has NOT been a violation (you could actually argue 99 out of 100 if you wanted to include hundreths - but let's keep it simple). So you have a 10% chance that the 25 showing on the clock is exactly 10 seconds and a violation has occurred.

Thus, there is a 90% chance that there has not been a violation.

I'd go all-in with those odds.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Brad

The shot clock is 35 seconds - that is, 35.0. Thus, when the clock starts it immediately goes to 34 and remains on 34 for the entire duration of 34.9-34.0.

If this were true, then the clock would show 0 for a whole second before the horn sounded. It doesn't do that. It hits 0 and the horn sounds simultaneously. That's because when the clock reads 0, it is 0. Not 0.9.

When the clock shows 25, 10 seconds have elapsed. Why is this so hard to accept?

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

If this were true, then the clock would show 0 for a whole second before the horn sounded. It doesn't do that. It hits 0 and the horn sounds simultaneously. That's because when the clock reads 0, it is 0. Not 0.9.

When the clock shows 25, 10 seconds have elapsed. Why is this so hard to accept?

Not true. I had a game where the clock showed zero and the horn had not gone off after the ball went out of bounds. We went to the scorer's table and the panel (box) at the scorer's table showed 0.3 (the panel had tenths but the clock did not). The game was not over so we administered the throw-in and we played til' the horn went off.

Z