The magic number

[Raymond]

Did we ever come up the definitive interpretion for the 10-second count? Thought I'd ask since it came up in NC game.

[ChuckElias]

I think this is pretty silly, to be honest. 35-10=25. When you see 25, it means that 10 seconds have elapsed. If you want to allow an extra tick just in case the clock didn't start exactly correctly, fine.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

I think this is pretty silly, to be honest. 35-10=25. When you see 25, it means that 10 seconds have elapsed. If you want to allow an extra tick just in case the clock didn't start exactly correctly, fine.

Chuck, if the shot clock operation was similar to the game clock, would this still be silly? If the wording was similar to the NBA would this still be silly? If this has helped one person never forget this microscopic tidbit, is it silly?

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Chuck, if the shot clock operation was similar to the game clock, would this still be silly?

Yes.

If the wording was similar to the NBA would this still be silly?

Yes.

If this has helped one person never forget this microscopic tidbit, is it silly?

Yes.

If 35 minus 10 didn't equal 25, then it wouldn't be silly.

[tomegun]

OK Chuck, whatever you say.

[Raymond]

For folks who officiate "shot clock" games:

What have you done in the past? I've only had one JuCo game where it became a real issue. (3-man) In the 1st half I'm new trail following VISITING team up the court. As they are bringing the ball up I notice shot clock is ahead of my count. They cross division with my count at 5 seconds and shot clock at 27 seconds. I whistle play dead and have shot clock set to 30 seconds for VISITING team. (no protests from either coach). 2nd half, VISITING team is down by about 8-10 points with 3-4 minutes left. VISITING team scores, i'm New Trail. VISITING team is pressing of course and I don't get a chance to look at shot clock. HOME team crosses division line with my count at 9 seconds and almost simultaneously I have a blocking foul. I look up and see shot clock at 22 seconds. VISITING coach is having a fit b/c he says it should be a 10 second violation. After I report the foul I tell him that 10-second violations go by my count, not the shot clock and I end the conversation (I resist the urge to remind him about the sitch in 1st half that benefitted his team).

So I ask again, what have you done in the past in situations where shot clock doesn't match your count???

[tomegun]

Your count isn't matching the shot clock. Check the shot clock, if you can, and be aware of it. All this talk about your (the official's) count being what matters and this being a silly discussion is BS in the world I officiate in. If that clock read 22, down from 35, when the foul was called, you are in the soup! The team violated and now you have to explain why your count is three seconds (more actually since you didn't have a violation) slower than the shot clock.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

For folks who officiate "shot clock" games:

What have you done in the past? I've only had one JuCo game where it became a real issue. (3-man) In the 1st half I'm new trail following VISITING team up the court. As they are bringing the ball up I notice shot clock is ahead of my count. They cross division with my count at 5 seconds and shot clock at 27 seconds. I whistle play dead and have shot clock set to 30 seconds for VISITING team. (no protests from either coach). 2nd half, VISITING team is down by about 8-10 points with 3-4 minutes left. VISITING team scores, i'm New Trail. VISITING team is pressing of course and I don't get a chance to look at shot clock. HOME team crosses division line with my count at 9 seconds and almost simultaneously I have a blocking foul. I look up and see shot clock at 22 seconds. VISITING coach is having a fit b/c he says it should be a 10 second violation. After I report the foul I tell him that 10-second violations go by my count, not the shot clock and I end the conversation (I resist the urge to remind him about the sitch in 1st half that benefitted his team).

So I ask again, what have you done in the past in situations where shot clock doesn't match your count???

Chances are higher that your count is too slow rather than the clock being wrong by 3 seconds.

I've observed official after official on the floor and I don't think I've ever seen one faster than the clock and an overwhelming majority are substantially slow. There is a substantial number that are almost 2x off. Most are off by at least 50%. THe best are typically 20-30% slow with an occassional official who is right on the mark.

Yet, I've heard other officials tell them they are counting too fast. What is being miscommunicated is not that the tempo of the count is too fast but that the arm movement is to extreme and makes it look too fast.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tomegun

If that clock read 22, down from 35, when the foul was called, you are in the soup!

(remember this is a JuCo, not a D1 or NBA game, so we are not working with professional shot-clock operators) In this particular game the shot clock operator was occassionally starting the clock too early , like after a basket when the ball was at the disposal of the in-bounder. That accounted for the extra seconds clicking off the shot clock. You think the VISITING coach would have preferred one of us had killed the play while he was pressing, set the shot clock to the proper time, then gave the HOME team a new 10-second count?

I'm not asking what you would do in a perfect world, I'm asking what have you done in the past or what you would do in the future. And in your opinion, what should the ruling have been on the play last night when the shot clock read 25 seconds and Cahill granted the time out to the Gators.

[Camron Rust]

The violation should occur when the clock says 25.

I think all shot clocks work the same: they remain on 35 until 1 second has elapsed...the horn buzzes as soon as it reads 0 (not 0.9999 seconds later).

When the clock shows 35, between 0 and 1 second has elapsed.
When it shows 34, between 1 and 2 seconds have elapsed.
Taking this down to 25, between 10 and 11 seconds have elapsed.

35 => 0 - 1
34 => 1 - 2
33 => 2 - 3
32 => 3 - 4
31 => 4 - 5
30 => 5 - 6
29 => 6 - 7
28 => 7 - 8
27 => 8 - 9
26 => 9 - 10
25 => 10 - 11
24 => 11 - 12

Therefore, if you wait until it says 24, you give them at least 11 seconds and, depending on your reaction time, up to 12 seconds.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

(remember this is a JuCo, not a D1 or NBA game, so we are not working with professional shot-clock operators) In this particular game the shot clock operator was occasionally starting the clock too early , like after a basket when the ball was at the disposal of the in-bounder. That accounted for the extra seconds clicking off the shot clock. You think the VISITING coach would have preferred one of us had killed the play while he was pressing, set the shot clock to the proper time, then gave the HOME team a new 10-second count?

I'm not asking what you would do in a perfect world, I'm asking what have you done in the past or what you would do in the future. And in your opinion, what should the ruling have been on the play last night when the shot clock read 25 seconds and Cahill granted the time out to the Gators.

If the clock is starting early as you say, it was a problem before the throwin was completed. Yes...stop the game, fix it, and restart the play. There will be no complaint if you do it then. If you know that it was already down to 32 when the throwin was still in progress, you should fix it right then, not wait until it gets close to an apparent violation and address it. That will only cause problems...either from saving a team from a tough situation or from allowing a team too much time.

[JRutledge]

Did anyone notice that last night the shot clock got to 25 when Florida had the ball and there was no 10 second violation called? Parker and Nance both commented on it. Jim Burr was the person that made the call originally that sparked this conversation and I believe he was in the C position.

Peace

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by tomegun

this being a silly discussion is BS in the world I officiate in.

Tom, I don't think using the shot clock properly is silly. I think all the agony over 24 or 25 is silly. It's obvious that when the shot clock says 25, that 10 seconds have elapsed. All this hand-wringing about well, does it go to 34 right away or does it wait a second, is pointless. When it says 25, that's 10. We have much more important things to worry about.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Chances are higher that your count is too slow rather than the clock being wrong by 3 seconds.

Cam, I might concede this except for the fact that one of things I do when ref'n some of the more boring and actionless Rec League games, or little kids games that have no pressing, is test my count against the clock throughout the game. Sometimes I'll look at the clock the entire time to see if I'm in sync, other times I'll look at the clock when I start my count then look back after 5-7 seconds and see if I'm still in tune with the clock.

In the game I was referring to we were having problems with the shot clock throughout the night. I'm thinking my count was on point and it was the part-time shot-clock operator who was starting the clock too fast.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Tom, I don't think using the shot clock properly is silly. I think all the agony over 24 or 25 is silly. It's obvious that when the shot clock says 25, that 10 seconds have elapsed. All this hand-wringing about well, does it go to 34 right away or does it wait a second, is pointless. When it says 25, that's 10. We have much more important things to worry about.

You are right, we do have much more to worry about. I will make sure to point that out when someone makes an obvious thread that I feel should be obvious. Sure, it is only a second, but it could make a difference. I didn't pay much attention to the exact wording until I noticed the different wording with the pro rule.
What if everyone commented about something on this board they thought was/is silly?