What to tell Refs to enforce a "safe" game

[mrgusb]

I think only Dave30 (and possibly 1 other)"got my point".
1. I'm not looking to sway the refs.
2. I am an excellent coach, mentor, and role model.
(Thanks much to chap using the term "dumb").
3. I did not imply that I didn't care about the other kids.
4. Again, if a ref. allows the game to get physical and does not call (intentional) fouls....it is the ref. that sets the tone.
5. If the ref. calls all (intentional) fouls, the teams (if well coached) should learn to control themselves (unless the other team is a lousy on the line...joke).

Chaps, I've been disappointed at the mentality behind the responses here....I sense once the "stripes" go on there's a "holier than thou" attitude! (I've heard this from coaches in other leagues...)

OBTW, about my game.....I said nothing to the refs.....since it was a Final, they called the game exceptionally well. By calling most every intentional foul they saw, they kept the physicality and the potential for escalation down to a minimum.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally posted by mrgusb
I think only Dave30 (and possibly 1 other)"got my point".
1. I'm not looking to sway the refs.
2. I am an excellent coach, mentor, and role model.
(Thanks much to chap using the term "dumb").
3. I did not imply that I didn't care about the other kids.
4. Again, if a ref. allows the game to get physical and does not call (intentional) fouls....it is the ref. that sets the tone.
5. If the ref. calls all (intentional) fouls, the teams (if well coached) should learn to control themselves (unless the other team is a lousy on the line...joke).

Chaps, I've been disappointed at the mentality behind the responses here....I sense once the "stripes" go on there's a "holier than thou" attitude! (I've heard this from coaches in other leagues...)

OBTW, about my game.....I said nothing to the refs.....since it was a Final, they called the game exceptionally well. By calling most every intentional foul they saw, they kept the physicality and the potential for escalation down to a minimum.

So you got all worked up over nothing?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mrgusb
I think only Dave30 (and possibly 1 other)"got my point".

2. I am an excellent coach, mentor, and role model.

Au contraire, coach. I think that a whole bunch of us got your point. Your point was that you wanted the officials to call fouls against the other team.

You might be an excellent coach and mentor, but that "role model" nonsense doesn't fly with officials that have got more than a year or two in. That might work with the newbies that don't know any better. Experienced officials have seen your kinda act before though- too many times- to buy into it.

Btw, we are "holier-than-thou" when it comes to coaches looking to get an edge for their team.

[Adam]

Originally posted by mrgusb

OBTW, about my game.....I said nothing to the refs.....since it was a Final, they called the game exceptionally well. By calling most every intentional foul they saw, they kept the physicality and the potential for escalation down to a minimum.

How many intentional fouls did they call? How many do you normally see during a game?

I don't remember that I've ever called more than one in a game, and I've certainly never done a game where more than 2 were called.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by mrgusb
I think only Dave30 (and possibly 1 other)"got my point".
1. I'm not looking to sway the refs.
2. I am an excellent coach, mentor, and role model.
(Thanks much to chap using the term "dumb").
3. I did not imply that I didn't care about the other kids.
4. Again, if a ref. allows the game to get physical and does not call (intentional) fouls....it is the ref. that sets the tone.
5. If the ref. calls all (intentional) fouls, the teams (if well coached) should learn to control themselves (unless the other team is a lousy on the line...joke).

Chaps, I've been disappointed at the mentality behind the responses here....I sense once the "stripes" go on there's a "holier than thou" attitude! (I've heard this from coaches in other leagues...)

OBTW, about my game.....I said nothing to the refs.....since it was a Final, they called the game exceptionally well. By calling most every intentional foul they saw, they kept the physicality and the potential for escalation down to a minimum.

[Adam]

Alright, point by point.

Originally posted by mrgusb
1. I'm not looking to sway the refs.

I guess this depends on how you define "sway," but to me, if you are looking to get them to make more calls, that's pretty much the definition of trying to "sway" them.

2. I am an excellent coach, mentor, and role model.

if you say so.

3. I did not imply that I didn't care about the other kids.

The implication comes from the focus on your kids' comments and the affect on them. This is perhaps understandable given the fact that you aren't hearing the other team's kids comment. However, if you want to know how to address the refs, then some vocalized concern for the other team would be in order.

4. Again, if a ref. allows the game to get physical and does not call (intentional) fouls....it is the ref. that sets the tone.

How many intentional fouls do you expect a game? It reads here as if you expect quite a few. Maybe you're defining it differently than I am. could you elaborate on this?

5. If the ref. calls all (intentional) fouls, the teams (if well coached) should learn to control themselves.

One intentional foul call should take care of it. Any more than that, and we're getting into poor coaching territory.

I sense once the "stripes" go on there's a "holier than thou" attitude! (I've heard this from coaches in other leagues...)

Yeah, you'll get that in these here parts any time you ask how to influence the officials in a game.

[dave30]

We only called one intentional foul for an elbow at the head of a player trying to set a screen. Other than that, we just tried to let the players play through contact if possible. This game was almost impossible to do that though as there was contact almost every trip down court. The moron in the stands went nuts when I gave the ball to white when it clearly went off white's leg. The idiot didn't realize that I did Red a favor since Red had actually fouled White and I chose to pass on the foul and just give White the ball back. Anyway, he went nuts forcing a gym administrator to sit next to him the rest of the game! Both coaches thought we handled it well and blamed the aggression on it being a "grudge" match. The teams apparently had tangled before and didn't enjoy each other's company!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mrgusb

4. Again, if a ref. allows the game to get physical and does not call (intentional) fouls....it is the ref. that sets the tone.

Coach doesn't set the tone?

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by mrgusb
I think only Dave30 (and possibly 1 other)"got my point".
1. I'm not looking to sway the refs.
2. I am an excellent coach, mentor, and role model.
(Thanks much to chap using the term "dumb").
3. I did not imply that I didn't care about the other kids.
4. Again, if a ref. allows the game to get physical and does not call (intentional) fouls....it is the ref. that sets the tone.
5. If the ref. calls all (intentional) fouls, the teams (if well coached) should learn to control themselves (unless the other team is a lousy on the line...joke).

Chaps, I've been disappointed at the mentality behind the responses here....I sense once the "stripes" go on there's a "holier than thou" attitude! (I've heard this from coaches in other leagues...)

OBTW, about my game.....I said nothing to the refs.....since it was a Final, they called the game exceptionally well. By calling most every intentional foul they saw, they kept the physicality and the potential for escalation down to a minimum.

OK. You're back and I don't want anyone else to speak for me. First of all, I am a coach, so my perspective is a little different than many here. I said I thought it was an inappropriate question not because I thought you were trying to gain an unfair advantage. I'm going to take you at your word that your goal was a relatively clean game and not start parsing your words 1-by-1. I don't think it's appropriate to ask how to help anticipate that officials are not going to be calling a game well.

Some unfair assumptions have been made about your intentions and your qualifications, but built into your question was a scenario that did not allow the officials the benefit of the doubt for calling the upcoming game fairly and correctly. Trust me, you're getting off relatively easy.

I have seen what I thought was a relatively masterful attempt at a pregame conversation. When I was an assistant coach we had a great team with a 6'2" center who had a very old-fashioned game that drove opponents nuts. He had a great show-and-go move that would have made Pete Newell weep but he was being called for travel about 50% of the time. Before a playoff game, the head coach brought me and the center over to the officials and asked them to help settle a bet. He said his stupid assistant (me) thought this move was a travel but that I was just too young to remember the greats. Then he had the kid demonstrate the move and got the officials to concur that it was not travel. "You owe me $20," he said to me for effect. I thought it was genius but the first time the kid made the move in the game - tweet.

There just ain't a way to do it.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally posted by bebanovich

OK. You're back and I don't want anyone else to speak for me. First of all, I am a coach, so my perspective is a little different than many here. I said I thought it was an inappropriate question not because I thought you were trying to gain an unfair advantage. I'm going to take you at your word that your goal was a relatively clean game and not start parsing your words 1-by-1. I don't think it's appropriate to ask how to help anticipate that officials are not going to be calling a game well.

Some unfair assumptions have been made about your intentions and your qualifications, but built into your question was a scenario that did not allow the officials the benefit of the doubt for calling the upcoming game fairly and correctly. Trust me, you're getting off relatively easy.

I have seen what I thought was a relatively masterful attempt at a pregame conversation. When I was an assistant coach we had a great team with a 6'2" center who had a very old-fashioned game that drove opponents nuts. He had a great show-and-go move that would have made Pete Newell weep but he was being called for travel about 50% of the time. Before a playoff game, the head coach brought me and the center over to the officials and asked them to help settle a bet. He said his stupid assistant (me) thought this move was a travel but that I was just too young to remember the greats. Then he had the kid demonstrate the move and got the officials to concur that it was not travel. "You owe me $20," he said to me for effect. I thought it was genius but the first time the kid made the move in the game - tweet.

There just ain't a way to do it.

Did you get the $20 back?

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by 26 Year Gap

Did you get the $20 back?

That part was a bluff. He knew I didn't have any $20.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally posted by bebanovich

That part was a bluff. He knew I didn't have any $20.

Well, at least the whistle took the pressure off...in case you ever came into some money...

[WooPigSooie]

This is boggling my mine....

I dont tell a doctor how to do surgery
I dont tell a lawyer how to try a case
I dont tell the garbage man how to load up my trash
THEREFORE, A coach should not tell me how to officiate a game.

I hope and prey there is no official in the world that would allow play to get so rough that injuries start occuring. If there are, they should be stripped of their license. But I am willing to guess those are 1 in a million.

Coach, officiating is VERY subjective. Yes, we have a rule book that lays out the guidelines of what must happen for a violation to occur, but after that it is up to interpretation and style. Some officials tend to allow rougher play and others may call every ticky tack foul that he or she sees. If officiating was objective, there would be no such thing as coaches getting T's for arguing. Like others said, that is a good way to get on an officials bad side. Its a bad business practice anywhere in the world to try to tell someone, even in a diplomatic manner, how to do their job better if you are not in the position of boss.

My suggestion is that you dont try to approach the officials about changing his or her styles. If you dont like the way they officiate, talk to the president of the local association, the assignor, your AD, or whoever is in charge of hiring and sending officials to your school and respectful and quietly ask that these particular officials are not sent back to officiate at your place. If you run into them on the road, just deal, man. Just deal.

[Edited by WooPigSooie on Mar 13th, 2006 at 11:10 PM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by bebanovich
the head coach brought me and the center over to the officials and asked them to help settle a bet. He said his stupid assistant (me) thought this move was a travel but that I was just too young to remember the greats. Then he had the kid demonstrate the move and got the officials to concur that it was not travel. "You owe me $20," he said to me for effect. I thought it was genius but the first time the kid made the move in the game - tweet.

There just ain't a way to do it.

Great story, beb.

The kid probably did it differently in the game. I've seen this kind of thing where a kid looks flawless in practice, and in warm-ups, but doesn't do it right during a game. It's possible the travel came before the actual move, so that it didn't flow the same as in the demo before the game. Even a very very good player can have a sudden brain fart and the "natural", automatic correct move disappears with the methane. Was there ever a time in that game where he did that move, and it wasn't called? Just curious.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Great story, beb.

The kid probably did it differently in the game. I've seen this kind of thing where a kid looks flawless in practice, and in warm-ups, but doesn't do it right during a game. It's possible the travel came before the actual move, so that it didn't flow the same as in the demo before the game. Even a very very good player can have a sudden brain fart and the "natural", automatic correct move disappears with the methane. Was there ever a time in that game where he did that move, and it wasn't called? Just curious.

I have only my recollections of it so I don't know exactly what was happening. I do know that this kid seemed like he stepped out of 1957. His dad was an older man who had taught him a solid hook shot with both hands and he was the most polite, clean-cut kid you could imagine, but he ended up with a full-ride football scholarship so I wouldn't like to tangle with him on the field.

His show and go kind of looked like a travel and opposing fans and coaches always reacted. If you broke it down there was no violation in it - I wish I could explain it better but it has been about 15 years since I've seen it. He seemed to get called about 1/2 the time or a little less for travel and I don't really know how to account for it but I don't think inconsistency was it - this kid was like an old black-and-white training video. My memories of that team are those of a rookie coach and parts are getting hazy. I do remember the fake bet pretty well, though . . . classic moment.