OK, we're bored. Topic: Rules never called. Discuss

[Raymond]

Originally posted by tomegun


BNR, I have yet to work with someone big enough or mean enough to not ask them WTF were you doing "consoling" (that is what it looks like most of the time) that coach after I gave a T. Call me crazy.

I've never consoled a coach after a "T". I have politely directed them to take a seat for the remainder of the game (high school). I did on one occassion have a coach who was still upset when I came over to seatbelt him after my partner T'd him (one of those ABS technicals) and I told him this "Whether or not you think WE missed a call, getting a 'T' in this situation didn't help your team". Coach quietly sat down and we didn't have a problem the rest of the game.

But just b/c a coach has been T'd up doesn't mean I'm gonna turn a deaf ear to what he has to say the rest of the game. And I am a proponent of using communication skills to de-escalate situations. If I 'T' a coach and I see my partner talking to him/her immediately afterwards I assume my partner is just trying to calm the coach down and get him/her to his/her seat. I think nothing of it. But again, I'm the trusting sort.

[Edited by BadNewsRef on Mar 10th, 2006 at 05:10 PM]

[bebanovich]

I apologize in advance for coach terminology in describing my answers.

NFHS: Any sort of violation involving the coaching box. Please don't start calling it. Let's think of it like a nuclear missle - a great deterent to have in place with no need to launch. I promise to behave if I'm out of it or be sitting if I'm not behaving.

NBA: Travelling, especially when the pivot foot comes up before dribble is initiated. I think about all the time I worked on a cross-over step in my driveway as a kid and all the chumps I could have left in the dust if I had simply been allowed to move both feet before dribbling.

Freeway: Slow traffic keep right. If you're going the same speed as other traffic, stay out of the left lane and let people who want to go faster go on their way. Damned if you'll ever see a violation called on this though.

[Edited by bebanovich on Mar 10th, 2006 at 04:58 PM]

[tomegun]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I am in the habit of NOT ignoring a coach's question. That goes double if I'm standing right next to him. If I have something to say I'll say it, if not I won't. You don't like that? Tough.

I am not in the habit of taking someone's comment on a particular play and using it to assume that is how they behave always. Something you seem to enjoy.

I am also not in the habit of ever yelling at partners, or being yelled at by partners. Luckily I run into very, very few of these types but the ones who feel the need to yell will be told to stop. Call me crazy. :shrug:

Let me back up. Yelling my be stretching what I would do, but there still isn't a reason why an official should have a discussion with a coach after a T. The calling official doesn't need help with the T and they sure don't need help explaining the T.
I'm not in the habit of taking someone's comments to mean they do something all the time either. Nor, do I enjoy talking about something that happens even though others would like to live in a dream world thinking it doesn't.
I do not ignore a coach, where did I say that? There is no way I can know what my partner(s) call and their reasoning unless it is a play where we have a double whistle. For that reason, I'm not going to give an explaination. Even if the explaination I give would be what I saw, it isn't fair to assume that is what my partner had when I 1. wasn't sure and 2. didn't have a whistle of my own.

When I say things like this it is because it isn't, IMO, good practice to do them. Unlike some, I cannot make a final judgement on someone's good or bad officiating skills based on the ability to read a rule book and type. However, I have seen these things in the flesh and speak of my own similar experiences. I know when something on this board applies to something I do and when it doesn't. I also know when something is discussed that I have awareness of. If these things don't happen to others, I'm not faulting them, but I know I have seen them. :shrug: That is all I'm saying.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bebanovich

NFHS: Any sort of violation involving the coaching box. Please don't start calling it. Let's think of it like a nuclear missle - a great deterent to have in place with no need to launch. I promise to behave if I'm out of it or be sitting if I'm not behaving.

Please don't whine if you do get called. Think of it as a rule....and a Point Of Emphasis in this year's rulebook......and a directive sent out by quite a few state governing bodies that the coaching box must be called as per the rule, or you get one warning before being nailed. Behavior has nothing to do with the call either. If you wander, you're taking your chances.

[Raymond]

Originally posted by tomegun

Let me back up. Yelling my be stretching what I would do, but there still isn't a reason why an official should have a discussion with a coach after a T. The calling official doesn't need help with the T and they sure don't need help explaining the T.
I'm not in the habit of taking someone's comments to mean they do something all the time either. Nor, do I enjoy talking about something that happens even though others would like to live in a dream world thinking it doesn't.
I do not ignore a coach, where did I say that? There is no way I can know what my partner(s) call and their reasoning unless it is a play where we have a double whistle. For that reason, I'm not going to give an explaination. Even if the explaination I give would be what I saw, it isn't fair to assume that is what my partner had when I 1. wasn't sure and 2. didn't have a whistle of my own.

When I say things like this it is because it isn't, IMO, good practice to do them. Unlike some, I cannot make a final judgement on someone's good or bad officiating skills based on the ability to read a rule book and type. However, I have seen these things in the flesh and speak of my own similar experiences. I know when something on this board applies to something I do and when it doesn't. I also know when something is discussed that I have awareness of. If these things don't happen to others, I'm not faulting them, but I know I have seen them. :shrug: That is all I'm saying.

Dan_Ref this what I think tomegun is trying to say.....

Just Kidding Tome......just keeping the mood like on this beautiful Friday afternoon.

It all depends on with whom you are working. There is a very good official on my HS board who operates under the same philosphy as you Tome. So I know when I'm working with him to stand back and let him handle all his own business. But then again, I work with other outstanding officials who don't mind if I address a coach in their stead b/c they trust whatever I'm saying will not be detrimental to the crew. Just a matter of knowing the people you work with and adjusting accordingly. Just like players and coaches, we officials all have our own personalities, as well as our own quirks and pet peeves. Which all makes for good forum fodder.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BadNewsRef
Dan_Ref this what I think tomegun is trying to say.....

Well if that's what he thinks then you better straighten him out!

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Please don't whine if you do get called. Think of it as a rule....and a Point Of Emphasis in this year's rulebook......and a directive sent out by quite a few state governing bodies that the coaching box must be called as per the rule, or you get one warning before being nailed. Behavior has nothing to do with the call either. If you wander, you're taking your chances.

I've seen on here before that it was a point of emphasis but I haven't seen it even warned in our area. Which makes me curious, how are the POE's handled? Are they determined nationally and then sort of reemphasized regionally?

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by BadNewsRef
...just keeping the mood like on this beautiful Friday afternoon.

Beautiful Friday afternoon?! What the hell are you lookin' at?! What are you blind?!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bebanovich
[/B]

I've seen on here before that it was a point of emphasis but I haven't seen it even warned in our area. Which makes me curious, how are the POE's handled? Are they determined nationally and then sort of reemphasized regionally? [/B][/QUOTE]Yes, POE's are determined by the NFHS Rules Committee, which is a national body. They then can be further re-emphasisized regionally. This particular POE states that it's an immediate "T" if a coach wanders out of his box, with no warning required. Thatr's as per the written rule. Some states, examples-Illinois and MASS, I think- have issued directives that one warning should be issued to a coach who is out of their box, and the next occurrence is a "T". Iirc, someone from Illinois also posted that their state governing body said that officials who wouldn't call that "T" as directed would not get year-end playoff games.

And, as I stated above, it makes no difference if you're out of the box coaching or whining either. They're supposed to be treated the same.

If it's not being called in your area, that's fine. If you go out of your area for a game and you get called, you know why.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Some states, examples-Illinois and MASS, I think- have issued directives that one warning should be issued to a coach who is out of their box, and the next occurrence is a "T". Iirc, someone from Illinois also posted that their state governing body said that officials who wouldn't call that "T" as directed would not get year-end playoff games.

And, as I stated above, it makes no difference if you're out of the box coaching or whining either. They're supposed to be treated the same.

If it's not being called in your area, that's fine. If you go out of your area for a game and you get called, you know why.

It's interesting that it sounds like this particular POE hasn't been equally embraced, but I don't want to further hijack the thread.

I know some officials might not believe me but, although I might be shocked to get a coaching box T without warning and while positioning players, it's not the kind of thing I'm going to challenge or whine about during a game.

The rule is clear and if I'm out of my box I've got no argument. I have chosen to ignore the rule because I don't ever sit down, my players can't see the game when I stand in the little box and, thus far, no one has called it. My moral code says that's not cheating because there is no unfair advantage but the rule book says that's a violation. On the court the rulebook beats out any personal rules I have for myself - as it should and must. I might be upset if I thought someone saw and ignored it all game until there were 30 seconds left in a tie, but that's a different beef.

My whining would happen here later and would be about the purpose of the rule and necessity of calling it like travelling vs. using as a tool to control when necessary. But now I'm hijacking when I said I wouldn't.

[Stat-Man]

How about the rule that a team has to submit it's roster and starters prior to 10 minutes.

Had a HS-GV game 1½ years ago where the official said he wasn't going to call it because 'He was here for basketball'. {Funny, that is part of basketball, last I checked}

And I've already vented about my NCAA-W game last month where the visiting coach didn't do it until 1 minute before gametime without any penalty.

Not to hijack the thread, but I want to, as a player, invoke the sub rule that says a captain can request opposing subs to stand in a line if there are 3 or more of them. I wonder how many officials would honor that request (how many team captains ever make this request?).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Stat-Man

Not to hijack the thread, but I want to, as a player, invoke the sub rule that says a captain can request opposing subs to stand in a line if there are 3 or more of them. I wonder how many officials would honor that request (how many team captains ever make this request?).

Stand in a line?

A captain can ask for a defensive match-up if 3 or more subs from the other team comes in, but there's no requirement to stand in a line....or stand anywhere for that matter. We just give them a few seconds to decide who they're each gonna take, is all.

[Chess Ref]

Hey Ca ref maybe we saw the same game. I know one of the guys on the crew at the game I was at and he was pissed. He said he was outvoted by the other two in how they would administer the SITCH.

[stmaryrams]

Originally posted by mplagrow
OK, I'll go along with the flop-as-a-T call, as being fairly rare. I've warned players, though. Multiple fouls. . . .never heard of one called. That would be a great one to p!ss off a coach! Has anyone called an illegal block on someone for standing with a foot on the boundary line since that rule was put in place?

Had a partner who "T'd" a flopper. Coach went nuts. He did warn the player before he called it.

I've called the block with foot on the line several times. Coaches still seem to teach this to their kids. Just put the foot near the line.

[gostars]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I've seen on here before that it was a point of emphasis but I haven't seen it even warned in our area. Which makes me curious, how are the POE's handled? Are they determined nationally and then sort of reemphasized regionally? [/B]

Yes, POE's are determined by the NFHS Rules Committee, which is a national body. They then can be further re-emphasisized regionally. This particular POE states that it's an immediate "T" if a coach wanders out of his box, with no warning required. Thatr's as per the written rule. Some states, examples-Illinois and MASS, I think- have issued directives that one warning should be issued to a coach who is out of their box, and the next occurrence is a "T". Iirc, someone from Illinois also posted that their state governing body said that officials who wouldn't call that "T" as directed would not get year-end playoff games.

And, as I stated above, it makes no difference if you're out of the box coaching or whining either. They're supposed to be treated the same.

If it's not being called in your area, that's fine. If you go out of your area for a game and you get called, you know why. [/B][/QUOTE]

Texas has also come down very hard on the coaching box. We were told that if we didn't enforce the box we wouldn't be getting playoff assignments. They also said that if the chapter as a whole didn't enforce it the ENTIRE CHAPTER would not be getting regional playoff assignments. On top of all this they told us that if an official was chronically not enforcing the coaching box the ethics committee would get involved.

Some of our gyms don't have a box taped down or the box is taped in the middle of the bench. We have been instructed to ask the coach to tape the box in it's proper position. If he/she refuses we are to seat belt the home coach and allow the visiting coach the first three chairs.