Is it a shot

[tjchamp]

A1, a little too far under the basket, goes up for the shot but the ball hits the bottom of the backboard on his way up. He never really loses control of the ball (it never left his hands), and comes down to the floor. Would this count as a shot attempt, or would it be travelling?

[mick]

Originally posted by tjchamp
A1, a little too far under the basket, goes up for the shot but the ball hits the bottom of the backboard on his way up. He never really loses control of the ball (it never left his hands), and comes down to the floor. Would this count as a shot attempt, or would it be travelling?

Jumped with control. Landed with continuous control.
Opponent did not prevent release.
I have a travel.
mick

[JugglingReferee]

This is a travel.

By your description, the player never lost control of the ball. He left the floor, then returned to the floor. Travel.

[tjchamp]

What would be your response if, after the ball hits the bottom of the backboard, A1 momentarily loses control of the ball, but still comes down with it?

[mick]

Originally posted by tjchamp
What would be your response if, after the ball hits the bottom of the backboard, A1 momentarily loses control of the ball, but still comes down with it?

My response would be to continue watching the action.
Nothing there.
mick

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by tjchamp
What would be your response if, after the ball hits the bottom of the backboard, A1 momentarily loses control of the ball, but still comes down with it?

Control would seem to be the gating item.

Consider what you would call if the player hit not the bottom of the backboard but the rim - its bottom, side, or top for that matter. If it walks like a dunk and talks like a dunk, is it a dunk? I'd say no, not if the the player doesn't relinquish player control of the ball. Travel.

[Rick82358]

either you had a walk or a jump stop because of control of the ball, Walk!


I take that back they are both travels -
if the ball hit the back board in the players hands and then he lost control of it - then landed there was no shot attempt I think that (S)He walked

[Edited by Rick82358 on Mar 6th, 2006 at 05:04 PM]

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Rick82358



I take that back they are both travels -
if the ball hit the back board in the players hands and then he lost control of it - then landed there was no shot attempt I think that (S)He walked

[Edited by Rick82358 on Mar 6th, 2006 at 05:04 PM]

Well, let's put it this way: it's not going to be a held ball between the backboard and the player . . .

The loss of control you describe could be seen as a fumble; if so, the player would have the right to come down with the ball, I believe.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

Well, let's put it this way: it's not going to be a held ball between the backboard and the player . . .

The loss of control you describe could be seen as a fumble; if so, the player would have the right to come down with the ball, I believe.

Yup, he does have the right to come down with the ball. Of course, he should be called for traveling as soon as he finishes exercising that right.

If they go up with player control....and come down with player control....and the ball was never touched by another player when it was loose on a fumble.... or a "try" was never released....or a defender didn't stop a "try" from being released.......then it's a travel because of a pivot-foot violation.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 7th, 2006 at 07:56 AM]

[All_Heart]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, he does have the right to come down with the ball. Of course, he should be called for traveling as soon as he finishes exercising that right.

If they go up with player control....and come down with player control....and the ball was never touched by another player when it was loose on a fumble.... or a "try" was never released....or a defender didn't stop a "try" from being released.......then it's a travel because of a pivot-foot violation.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 7th, 2006 at 07:56 AM]

My interpretation was that you may always recover a fumble. A fumble is a loss of player control so I thought the player may recover the ball while in the air and come back down with it. Is there a case play covering this?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by All_Heart

My interpretation was that you may always recover a fumble. A fumble is a loss of player control so I thought the player may recover the ball while in the air and come back down with it. Is there a case play covering this?

Rule 4-44-3a&b covers the play. Also see case book play 4.43.3SitB. The key to the call is not whether the shooter lost player control in the air; it's whether he lost team control in the air. To avoid a travel, team control must be lost by the player in the air.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, he does have the right to come down with the ball. Of course, he should be called for traveling as soon as he finishes exercising that right.

If they go up with player control....and come down with player control....and the ball was never touched by another player when it was loose on a fumble.... or a "try" was never released....or a defender didn't stop a "try" from being released.......then it's a travel because of a pivot-foot violation.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 7th, 2006 at 07:56 AM]

"then it's a travel because of a pivot-foot violation."

I am not a fan of the fumble rule. It may be a structural necessity, but it also rewards mistakes.

That being said, it's generally (but perhaps not perfectly) true that a player who lifts their pivot foot must pass or shoot (or stand on one leg . . . ).

Consider 9.5.1 SITUATION: A1 ends a dribble and then jumps and releases the ball on a try for goal. B1 partially blocks the shot, but A1 secures control again while still in the air. A1 returns to the floor and dribbles to the basket and scores. RULING: Legal maneuver. Both player control and team control ended when A1 released the ball. When A1 recovered he/she could dribble again similar to dribbling after catching a pass or rebound.

Noting that a FUMBLE is (4-21) "accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp", if a player standing on both feet and in control establishes a pivot foot (lifts one foot), then fumbles the ball, may s/he not retrieve the ball, no matter that the pivot foot comes down, no matter how many steps it takes?

[Rick82358]

Consider 9.5.1 SITUATION: A1 ends a dribble and then jumps and releases the ball on a try for goal. B1 partially blocks the shot, but A1 secures control again while still in the air. A1 returns to the floor and dribbles to the basket and scores.
RULING: Legal maneuver. Both player control and team control ended when A1 released the ball. When A1 recovered he/she could dribble again similar to dribbling after catching a pass or rebound.




The difference here is that the ball originally left the players hand on a try for goal, Loss of player and team control - Therefore there was no piviot foot established because the ball was recovered and fumbled and rerecovered in the air - when the player returned to the floor the first foot to hit was the pivot foot. As long as that dribble started before the player lifted that pivot foot, it is a legal play.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Rick82358
Consider 9.5.1 SITUATION: A1 ends a dribble and then jumps and releases the ball on a try for goal. B1 partially blocks the shot, but A1 secures control again while still in the air. A1 returns to the floor and dribbles to the basket and scores.
RULING: Legal maneuver. Both player control and team control ended when A1 released the ball. When A1 recovered he/she could dribble again similar to dribbling after catching a pass or rebound.




The difference here is that the ball originally left the players hand on a try for goal, Loss of player and team control - Therefore there was no piviot foot established because the ball was recovered and fumbled and rerecovered in the air - when the player returned to the floor the first foot to hit was the pivot foot. As long as that dribble started before the player lifted that pivot foot, it is a legal play.

I understand that 9.5.1 is not exactly the play under consideration. But it establishes, does it not, that a player may leave the floor with control, have control terminate then be reestablished, then legally return to the floor?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
[/B]

I understand that 9.5.1 is not exactly the play under consideration. But it establishes, does it not, that a player may leave the floor with control, have control terminate then be reestablished, then legally return to the floor? [/B][/QUOTE]No, it sureasheck doesn't. The legality of the play depends on the type of control that is terminated in the air. 9.5.1 says that if team control ends, it's legal to return to the floor. If team control doesn't end, it's a travel- or a held ball if a defender stopped the player from releasing the ball.

Simple as that.