Requesting a Time-Out after a made basket

[PGCougar]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Damian

So, during that brief time between the made basket and the ball being OUT OF BOUNDS in the possesion of the thrower, a timeout can be granted. While the ball is out of bounds even if the throwing team has the ball in a players hands, the ball is still dead. There is no team possesion. All timeout and foul situations comply with this.

Oh my....

Damian, that's a very basic rule that you've got wrong. It's already been cited above too. Again:

Rule6-1-2(b)- "The ball becomes live when it is at the disposal of the thrower".

You couldn't be more wrong. Please read the case book play above too. The NCAA rule is the same also re: when the ball becomes live.

[CaliOne]

"at the disposal of the thrower" agreeing with JR.

[Damian]

My first response had a typo in it. I meant to say "While the ball is in bounds", not out of bounds and the player is holding the ball. Sorry for the mistake. But, the rest still remains.

If the person is in bounds and has not taken the ball out of bounds how can he be the thrower? He may toss it to a teammate to throw in, or wait before taking the ball out of bounds to become the thrower. The ball is still dead and either team can call a timeout. Now, if he delays, and the official starts the 5 second count, then at that time the ball is considered live and only the offensive team can call the timeout.

[Edited by Damian on Feb 23rd, 2006 at 11:59 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Damian
My first response had a typo in it. I meant to say "While the ball is in bounds", not out of bounds and the player is holding the ball. Sorry for the mistake. But, the rest still remains.

If the person is in bounds and has not taken the ball out of bounds how can he be the thrower? He may toss it to a teammate to throw in, or wait before taking the ball out of bounds to become the thrower. The ball is still dead and either team can call a timeout. Now, if he delays, and the official starts the 5 second count, then at that time the ball is considered live and only the offensive team can call the timeout.

Forget about who the thrower is. It's completely irrelevant. You can have several throwers after a made basket.

Rule 6-7-2(b) sez that the ball becomes live when it's at the disposal of the thrower. In the case book play already cited(6.1.2SitB(a)), the ball is in-bounds and is at the disposal of the thrower. The RULING sez that the ball becomes live at that time and NO time-out can be granted to the scoring team. Note also the sentence in the COMMENT that sez "The covering official shall start his/her throw-in count when it is determined that the ball is available". Not "out-of-bounds", Damian, "available". That sentence holds true for all non-designated spot throw-ins.

Iow, you're completely ignoring what's written in the books. In practise, it's true that most officials (including myself) will wait for whoever picks the ball up to get OOB before starting a 5-second count. But....most officials in my experience also won't grant a TO request by the scoring team if it's made after someone on the throwing team has grabbed the ball- unless the ball had bounced up-court and there was gonna be an unusual delay getting it OOB.

[Damian]

Just wish the people that runs clinics would get it right before telling us the rules. That's why I still come here.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Damian
Just wish the people that runs clinics would get it right before telling us the rules. That's why I still come here.

Or.....to put it another way.....because you come here, maybe you should be running the clinics.

[Camron Rust]

I will allow a timeout by the scoring team until the team making the throwin has picked up the ball and is in a position where they could make a legal throwin or has had enough time to be in such a position. That point is synchronous with the start of the 5 second count. If you disallow the timeout earlier, you must also start the 5 count earlier....leaving the throwing team will less than 5 seconds for the actual throwin.

[Forksref]

Originally posted by PGCougar
Thanks JR. Appreciate the references.

Like I said earlier, I think the best approach is to make sure my players have the game presence to request the time out early, often, and loudly and the ball is falling through the net, before it makes it completely through.

Is it appropriate should the situation allow (e.g. dead ball with official nearby) to make the official aware that we'll be calling for the TO after the make?

Two points:

(1) Since the rule was introduced that allows coaches to call a TO, I have never seen a player call a TO except to avoid a held ball or OOB. If your players call TO's in other situations, that is rare. I think that the rule has virtually eliminated the players from being involved in end-of-game thinking and decision-making. It used to be that your captains were real "leaders" out there and now they just show up for the pre-game instructions. That is too bad.

(2) I have never seen a TO denied in these situations. The interpretation is usually that the TO was called by the coach prior to the ball being at the disposal, even though the ball is in the hands of the player OOB.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Forksref

I have never seen a TO denied in these situations. The interpretation is usually that the TO was called by the coach prior to the ball being at the disposal, even though the ball is in the hands of the player OOB.
[/B]

I've never seen a time-out granted in these situations. Well, I gotta amend that a little. I have seen that type of TO granted-- and I also know that the officials that granted it heard about it later because they screwed up. Officials who are trained properly and know the rules will not grant a timeout unless the request for it is made as per the rule. The rule (5-8-3) states that you can only grant a time-out request when that request is made when the ball is dead or in control of at the disposal of a team. A coach saying that he wants a TO if a FT is made meets neither provision of the rule. It's not our job to help one team out over another out there, especially by ignoring a plainly written rule--which is exactly what you're recommending in this case.

Your interpretation must be a local one, methinks. I don't think that it's the one being widely taught.

Bad advice imo.

[PGCougar]

Originally posted by Forksref
... Since the rule was introduced that allows coaches to call a TO, I have never seen a player call a TO except to avoid a held ball or OOB. If your players call TO's in other situations, that is rare. I think that the rule has virtually eliminated the players from being involved in end-of-game thinking and decision-making. It used to be that your captains were real "leaders" out there and now they just show up for the pre-game instructions. That is too bad.

I think that is a good point. As a coach, I make an effort to teach my players about game presence. We always coach our players to develop a habit of taking a quick look at the clock at every whistle to make sure they know score, time, bonus, and possession arrow information. This knowledge is crucial to end of game situations. Four little things that take about 5 seconds. For example, if the player knows he has the possession arrow in our favor, he doesn't have to waste a time-out if he gets tied up in a jump ball situation. The goal is to create smart players, although your point is well taken - some coaches have eroded the leadership role of the players on the floor trying to control everything from the sideline.

Personally, I still think it's quicker to have the players call for time instead of the coach. The officials are most focused on the players to begin with and I can only imagine how distracting it must be to have to look back to verify it's me making the call instead of some fool of a fan acting out as a coach wannabe. Don't get me wrong, I'll be calling it out as well, but I think JR makes a good point that in a loud gym, the T sign by a nearby player is the quickest way to get the official's attention anyway.