High School Shot Clock: Yes or No?

[Rich]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I would guess that there are a between one million and two million basketball games (boys' and girls'; jr. H.S. and H.S.) played in Canada and the United States each school year using NFHS rules. How many end up with scores like 8-5? Not enough to worry about whether the rules need a shot clock.

MTD, Sr.

I've seen one score all season in WI where the losing team was in single digits. And it had NOTHING to do with lack of a shot clock.

I want nothing to do with a shot clock. We have enough timer issues as it is. On a tangential note, I also want nothing to do with stopping the clock on a made basket anytime in the game. Again, we have enough timer issues as it is.

--Rich

[bebanovich]

Stalling can be pretty risky business unless it is by mutual agreement. A team would have to be pretty sound in the fundamentals to slow the game down against another team's will. If stalling were catching on across the country I would guess that fundamentals would be as well. A few baseball-type scores might not be a horrible price to pay

[BayStateRef]

We use a 30-second clock in Mass. for high school boys and girls, although there is no 10-second backcourt in the girls game. It's simply no big deal as an official. The few issues with the clock operator usually are with freshmen or JV games -- and they simply do not matter. One league does not use the clock for freshman boys. Again, I don't see it as a big deal either way. I see one to three clock violations in an average game.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by BayStateRef
I don't see it as a big deal either way. I see one to three clock violations in an average game.

Yeah, but how many shot clock errors do you see per game? MIAA doesn't give any shot clock training, as far as I know. If you're only seeing 1 per game, then either you're very fortunate when it comes to table personnel or you're not paying close enough attention. JMO.

[coach41]

I've seen a few folks in CA respond but to refresh:

35 Seconds for Boys
30 Seconds for Girls plus NO 10 second count in the backcourt

I can't really comment on how the shot clock has affected the game for the teams as far as players and coaches go. There are some that run a tight, structured offense that probably would prefer there was no shot clock (to slow down those athletic teams) and there are those athletic teams where a shot goes up 10 seconds into a possession.

The biggest effect (as others have said) is for the people running the clocks at the games. The MAJORITY of public school games I have reffed (JV and Varsity) are run by kids. Some times, these kids are good. Most of the game, they are bad.

Turning the regular clock on/off, no problem. Shot clock? Good luck trying to do a 1 minute presentation on how the shot clock works and when to reset it. Usually, all you end up saying is this: "If you're not sure, DON'T RESET IT, we'll let you know".

The few catholic school games I work, you usually get adults or very good kids working the clocks.

[Rick Vietti]

I have been reffing in 2 states this year. Nevada (no shot clock) and California (with shot clock).

From a personal observation it does change some of the coaching strategy, especially towards the end of the game.

In Nevada if the score is close the teams might start fouling with a couple of minutes left in the game. In California, because the team may get a couple of possesions, you see a different strategy.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I have officiated women's college basketball for 32 yrs, men's college for thirteen years, and officiated girls' H.S. for two years in California.

NO! NO! NO! The game doesn't need it at any level including NBA/WNBA and FIBA.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. Get rid of the Alternating Possession and go back to jump balls.

Your PS is BS.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Yeah, but how many shot clock errors do you see per game? MIAA doesn't give any shot clock training, as far as I know. If you're only seeing 1 per game, then either you're very fortunate when it comes to table personnel or you're not paying close enough attention. JMO.

The quality of shot clock operation in the four leagues with which I am involved from Boston north varies from good to horrible. We, too, have the occasional school that says, despite it's being an MIAA requirement, "We don't _do_ shot clock for the frosh boys and/or girls."

Personally, I've never liked it. Why would you need it in the boys game? There's a ten second count in the backcourt and a five second count in the front court. Let 'em play keep away. It's just strategy. Generally, there aren't many high school teams with enough self-control and/or skill to freeze the ball for very long, anyway.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by 26 Year Gap

Your PS is BS.

26 Yr.:

There was no need to get snotty. We all have opinions about the rules. The rule I would love to see eiliminated is the three second rule.

MTD, Sr.

[Corndog89]

Mark

Why do you favor getting rid of the AP and returning to jump balls? Just curious...

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I have officiated women's college basketball for 32 yrs, men's college for thirteen years, and officiated girls' H.S. for two years in California.

NO! NO! NO! The game doesn't need it at any level including NBA/WNBA and FIBA.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. Get rid of the Alternating Possession and go back to jump balls.

OK - I wholeheartedly agree with the AP. It doesn't reward good defense.

But the shot clock? The arguement seems to be that since there is inadequate training for scorers we should eradicate the shot clock.

Here's an idea, since coaches don't understand the rules, lets make "over the back" a foul

[Edited by Oz Referee on Feb 20th, 2006 at 11:01 PM]

[zebraman]

We use a 30-second shot clock here in Washington state for girls basketball. It makes the game more fast-paced and more enjoyable to ref. I like it. I wish the boys would put in a 40-second clock. I have heard rumors that it is being seriously discussed in our state.

It doesn't take a genius to run the clock. We have had few problems, even at the smaller schools. Besides, an official with good clock management skills has little problem addressing an occasional error by the shot clock operator anyway.

I agree that the games that have extremely low scores due to stalling are few and far between. In fact, I can only remember one that I have officiated. But that one was enough to make me a big fan of the shot clock. What a waste of an evening that was.

Z

[bebanovich]

I still don't understand what the rationale is for the shot-clock in high school. Does anyone know what is being discussed when states or regions discuss adopting it?

Is it to speed up the game for spectators? This seems a rather dubious reason to adjust high school rules and it has helped decrease the instruction of old-fashioned fundamentals in California since its adoption IMO. I also think it's helped contribute to the increase in blow-outs (an issue that was recently featured in our newspaper).

Is it to help prepare kids for the college game? As a college coach would you rather have a kid grounded in the fundamentals who had to learn to play faster or a kid who could play fast who had to be grounded in the fundamentals. I realize this is a bit of a strawman but I exaggerate to make a point.

I am a little bitter because I used to be able to take a mediocre group from a public school and turn them into a machine that would wait for a well-stocked private school to make tiny mistakes and put our collective foot on their figurative neck. We rarely looked to simply stall but one of my favorite coaching moments was watching my team run a high cutter offense for 2 1/2 minutes until the defense on one of my shooters literally straightened up and stopped playing real defense. Catch, three, swish, 12-point lead, game essentially over.

It seems maybe the big name private schools want more bang for their recuiting buck with no pesky upstarts buzzing around their picnic. *he murmurs bitterly*

[Edited by bebanovich on Feb 20th, 2006 at 11:56 PM]

[cowbyfan1]

no shot clock at all.. Too many headaches already in HS ball to deal with that. A number of clock keepers can barely do that and can barely keep the AP straight. Having said that tho, keep the AP.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

26 Yr.:

There was no need to get snotty. We all have opinions about the rules. The rule I would love to see eiliminated is the three second rule.

MTD, Sr.

Having officiated in the 70s when there was no AP arrow, I can assure you that nobody would enjoy tossing up lots of jump balls in various locations and sometimes back to back. The AP has sped up the game and is one of the best rule changes ever.