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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 18, 2001, 07:14am
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A situation occurred Saturday and I wanted to see if it had happened to anyone else and how you handled it -- or would have handled it.

I was doing a 14 y/o girls AAU game and working with a female varsity official. Coach from Team A (which was up by 32 points), had been "chirping" at us from the git go. My partner gave him the stop sign and he did stop for a couple of minutes and then she made a call on a block/charge situation. She reported the call and then the coach looked at me (I was the R) and said.."That was a terrible call, but what can you expect, she a female ref". I immediately stuck him. BTW, this particular had been T'd in every single game (5 games) this weekend. I had absolutely no problem in sticking him, but in retrospect, maybe I should have tossed him. Any thoughts on this? Would you have tossed him? Any thoughts or comments appreciated.
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Old Mon Jun 18, 2001, 07:43am
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Quote:
Originally posted by dblref
A situation occurred Saturday and I wanted to see if it had happened to anyone else and how you handled it -- or would have handled it.

I was doing a 14 y/o girls AAU game and working with a female varsity official. Coach from Team A (which was up by 32 points), had been "chirping" at us from the git go. My partner gave him the stop sign and he did stop for a couple of minutes and then she made a call on a block/charge situation. She reported the call and then the coach looked at me (I was the R) and said.."That was a terrible call, but what can you expect, she a female ref". I immediately stuck him. BTW, this particular had been T'd in every single game (5 games) this weekend. I had absolutely no problem in sticking him, but in retrospect, maybe I should have tossed him. Any thoughts on this? Would you have tossed him? Any thoughts or comments appreciated.
dblref,
I think the technical foul on the coach was an appropriate penalty.
He quieted then didn't he?
mick
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Old Mon Jun 18, 2001, 09:15am
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This is not the NBA. Stick him and sit him down. That is enough for me.
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Old Mon Jun 18, 2001, 10:16am
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dblref, how did the players react to his statement?
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Old Mon Jun 18, 2001, 10:28am
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Quote:
Originally posted by dblref
A situation occurred Saturday and I wanted to see if it had happened to anyone else and how you handled it -- or would have handled it.

I was doing a 14 y/o girls AAU game and working with a female varsity official. Coach from Team A (which was up by 32 points), had been "chirping" at us from the git go. My partner gave him the stop sign and he did stop for a couple of minutes and then she made a call on a block/charge situation. She reported the call and then the coach looked at me (I was the R) and said.."That was a terrible call, but what can you expect, she a female ref". I immediately stuck him. BTW, this particular had been T'd in every single game (5 games) this weekend. I had absolutely no problem in sticking him, but in retrospect, maybe I should have tossed him. Any thoughts on this? Would you have tossed him? Any thoughts or comments appreciated.
You asked, so I'll tell you. Any coach up 32 ponts in a
14U game that does not see fit to sit down quietly and just
enjoy the game is a complete a**hole. I'll bet this guy
even kept his starters in & the press on. So let's
look at it this way. Up 32 there's no way you hurt him with
that T, I bet you he even enjoyed it. It would have really
got his attention if you would have followed your "T" signal
by pointing to the door & calmly saying "Coach, you are
gone."
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Old Mon Jun 18, 2001, 10:43am
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Quote:
You asked, so I'll tell you. Any coach up 32 ponts in a 14U game that does not see fit to sit down quietly and just enjoy the game is a complete a**hole. I'll bet this guy even kept his starters in & the press on.
I agree with this.

Quote:
Up 32 there's no way you hurt him with that T, I bet you he even enjoyed it. It would have really got his attention if you would have followed your "T" signal by pointing to the door & calmly saying "Coach, you are gone."
I wholeheartedly disagree. We are not on the court to "hurt" anyone. We are on the court to administer the rules. This situation is absoutely a T, but nothing else. Trying to make it something else, hurts the game, it does not help anything, IMO.
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Old Mon Jun 18, 2001, 10:49am
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by stripes
Quote:

Quote:
Up 32 there's no way you hurt him with that T, I bet you he even enjoyed it. It would have really got his attention if you would have followed your "T" signal by pointing to the door & calmly saying "Coach, you are gone."
I wholeheartedly disagree. We are not on the court to "hurt" anyone. We are on the court to administer the rules. This situation is absoutely a T, but nothing else. Trying to make it something else, hurts the game, it does not help anything, IMO.
OK, you've got a good point. Let's change "hurt" to
"make the game better".
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Old Mon Jun 18, 2001, 11:33am
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I think the one t was enough. if he kept at it I would have shown him the door.
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Old Mon Jun 18, 2001, 01:49pm
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Question here's a thought

In retrospect, I think this is one of the most thought-provoking questions ever on this board. It brings up the much larger question of discrimination.

Obviously, if the coach had disparaged the official's race, color or religion, he would have been tossed and probably expelled from the rest of the tournament. But because he disparaged the official's gender, we all think a single T was appropriate.

Under most federal and state anti-discrimination laws, gender bias is considered just as wrong as bias of the other identifiers. But, I guess, we don't, based on the responses. And, I'm just as guilty as everyone else, since I feel the single T in the case was the correct penalty.

What if the official had been over 50 and the coach made a remark about expecting a call like that from someone that old? Would we have even called the T, or just let it go as being non-offensive? Age bias is usually also protected under law (at least in employment).

Maybe laws don't really reflect the feelings of society. Of course, laws also have to protect people, regardless of the feeling of the majority, so perhaps my analogy isn't valid.

Maybe some comments from female officials would be of interest here.
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Old Mon Jun 18, 2001, 01:55pm
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This is obviously a "problem coach".

His antics should have been discussed during the pre-game. A "problem coach" must be dealt with immediately (i.e. first few minutes of the game). He must know and understand what will be tolerated during the game.

At the first sign of things going wrong, talk to him sternly and let him know your crew will not put up with his sh*t. Sometimes this is enough. Sometimes it's not, especially if he doesn't know the crew. He'll test you later in the game. The instant he crosses the line, he gets whacked! (quickly and firmly like he doesn't know what hit em'). Then it's up to him whether he wants to stay and coach or test the crew again.

Ideally all of this would happen within the first 4 or 5 minutes.
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Old Mon Jun 18, 2001, 03:18pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by JeffRef
This is obviously a "problem coach".

His antics should have been discussed during the pre-game. A "problem coach" must be dealt with immediately (i.e. first few minutes of the game). He must know and understand what will be tolerated during the game.

At the first sign of things going wrong, talk to him sternly and let him know your crew will not put up with his sh*t. Sometimes this is enough. Sometimes it's not, especially if he doesn't know the crew. He'll test you later in the game. The instant he crosses the line, he gets whacked! (quickly and firmly like he doesn't know what hit em'). Then it's up to him whether he wants to stay and coach or test the crew again.

Ideally all of this would happen within the first 4 or 5 minutes.
Jeff, these are all great points but we have to remember that this was AAU, which means doing 2, 3, 4 (yuch!) games in a row, you get maybe 5 minutes for pregame (you burn
3 of them to use the facilities), you usually don't know who
the opponents will be, sometimes you recognize who they are
and the level of play is very inconsistent. And then, to
top it off, you find yourself in a girls 32 point blow-out,
you kick into cruise control and hope the thing ends quickly
& painlessley. I'm not making excuses for these folks, I
agree with you that the time to have taken care of business
was much earlier but they didn't. But now we're way beyond
that and Coach A has decided to look you in the eye and
publicly insult you and your partner, and as Mark points
out this goes beyond your run-of-the-mill insult. Coach
A's behavior has little to do with basketball. T him & eject
him, let the tourney directors sort out what to do with him
next.
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Old Mon Jun 18, 2001, 05:44pm
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In my humble opinion, any comments made about my ability (or lack thereof) result in a T (usually after the stop sign or a verbal warning). Any comments that are questioning calls I let go, as long as they are not over the top (for example "How about the walk?", or "You call THAT a charge?") are fine.

Any comments that are dicriminatory or that imply that I (or my partner) are biased towards one or the other teams results in a T straight away. If this comment is loud enough to be heard by all the players on the court, especially when it is the coach of young, impressionable players - toss 'em.

I honestly believe that the reason that there are so many "problem" players and coaches around is because the coaches they had as youngsters didn't teach them how to respond to referees. When I started playing my coach (who was also my father) always told our team that:

1. The referees never make mistakes.

2. If the referee makes a mistake, see 1.

3. It is the coaches job, not the players, to question the referee, in a polite manner.

Also, he always pulled a player off the court if they acted up, regardless of the importance of that player. To me this is something that does not happen nearly enough in youth basketball. The coaches need to teach their players how to BEHAVE as well as PLAY. If more coaches had this sort of attitude, perhaps we would have less grief with players.

And that's all I have to say about that....
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Old Tue Jun 19, 2001, 01:40am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oz Referee
When I started playing my coach (who was also my father) always told our team that:

1. The referees never make mistakes.

2. If the referee makes a mistake, see 1.

3. It is the coaches job, not the players, to question the referee, in a polite manner.

Also, he always pulled a player off the court if they acted up, regardless of the importance of that player. To me this is something that does not happen nearly enough in youth basketball. The coaches need to teach their players how to BEHAVE as well as PLAY.
WOW!!! You were one very lucky guy, to have a dad like that!!

As for the remark about the female ref -- I do think I get more grief because of being female. I know that sounds like I have a chip on my shoulder, but I don't. I just can't help noticing that I get more chipping than the men. Especially in boys' ball. Girls coaches are usually glad to have a female ref, and they give me about the same grief as they give the male refs.

The remark described above would fall under flagrant in my book. If I heard it, he'd get the axe. If anyone questioned this action, I would have no trouble comparing it to a similar remark based on race or age. It is a belittling, dehumanizing attitude and does not belong in civilized society, anywhere. Period.

This very remark was made about me in one game at camp, about a year ago, but I didn't hear it. My evaluator was very harsh with me for not tossing the coach, but I couldn't since I didn't hear the remark. My evaluator said any remark of this nature should be grounds for tossing and that this kind of attitude was never to be tolerated in any way. He said that the women that succeed in men's bball, in the NBA and also at the HS level (we have a couple of women here who do some boys varsity) make it because they command respect by being always respectful to everyone around them, and also respectful to themselves.

He said he heard about a woman ref who tossed a coach for this kind of remark. She heard the comment, went over and said, "I'm sorry you feel that way. Since you can't respect me, you won't be wanting to finish this game, so I'm going to have your assistant take your place, and you can call my assignor tomorrow and let him know that I am now on your list" ( in our area, varsity coaches are allowed to list up to five refs they never want). Apparently, she said it very quietly, and with no sarcasm, or false sweetness, but just very matter of fact, like the best way to tell your teenager he is grounded for the next three weeks. The interesting thing is that the coach ended up getting her for TWO of his state tournament games!! And of course, she had not a peep out of him. At least, that's how the story goes.

[Edited by rainmaker on Jun 19th, 2001 at 01:42 AM]
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Old Tue Jun 19, 2001, 01:46am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oz Referee
When I started playing my coach (who was also my father) always told our team that:

1. The referees never make mistakes.

2. If the referee makes a mistake, see 1.

3. It is the coaches job, not the players, to question the referee, in a polite manner.

Also, he always pulled a player off the court if they acted up, regardless of the importance of that player. To me this is something that does not happen nearly enough in youth basketball. The coaches need to teach their players how to BEHAVE as well as PLAY.
WOW!!! You were one very lucky guy, to have a dad like that!!

As for the remark about the female ref -- I do think I get more grief because of being female. I know that sounds like I have a chip on my shoulder, but I don't. I just can't help noticing that I get more chipping than the men. Especially in boys' ball. Girls coaches are usually glad to have a female ref, and they give me about the same grief as they give the male refs.

The remark described above would fall under flagrant in my book. If I heard it, he'd get the axe. If anyone questioned this action, I would have no trouble comparing it to a similar remark based on race or age. It is a belittling, dehumanizing attitude and does not belong in civilized society, anywhere. Period.

This very remark was made about me in one game at camp, about a year ago, but I didn't hear it. My evaluator was very harsh with me for not tossing the coach, but I couldn't since I didn't hear the remark. My evaluator said any remark of this nature should be grounds for tossing and that this kind of attitude was never to be tolerated in any way. He said that the women that succeed in men's bball, in the NBA and also at the HS level (we have a couple of women here who do some boys varsity) make it because they command respect by being always respectful to everyone around them, and also respectful to themselves.

He said he heard about a woman ref who tossed a coach for this kind of remark. She heard the comment, went over and said, "I'm sorry you feel that way. Since you can't respect me, you won't be wanting to finish this game, so I'm going to have your assistant take your place, and you can call my assignor tomorrow and let him know that I am now on your list" ( in our area, varsity coaches are allowed to list up to five refs they never want). Apparently, she said it very quietly, and with no sarcasm, or false sweetness, but just very matter of fact, like the best way to tell your teenager he is grounded for the next three weeks. The interesting thing is that the coach ended up getting her for TWO of his state tournament games!! And of course, she had not a peep out of him. At least, that's how the story goes.

Whether it's a true story or not, I think the explanation she made to the coach puts it in perspective -- He can't respect her, so he's got to leave. His attitude would otherwise poison the whole atmosphere, in the same way that the atmosphere would be toxic if he were to use the "N" word, or something like that.

[Edited by rainmaker on Jun 19th, 2001 at 01:42 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]
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Old Tue Jun 19, 2001, 06:22am
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I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond to my question. I "lurked" in this forum for a couple of months and then decided to join -- glad that I did because it really helps to have other officials validate/repudiate(?) what you say.

To follow up a bit, in retrospect, I should have tossed him. This was the 2 of 3 games on Saturday for my partner and me and the first game was super. BTW, I also work with the female official and we discussed this further at work yesterday -- she did not hear the remark. I did find out on Sunday that the coach was tossed. I forgot to mention that I also had a T on his bench. His assistant coach made a smart-*** remark (before I T'd the coach). I have very thick skin and it takes a lot for me to give a T. The assistant coach came up to us after the game and apologized for his remark. He told us that he was a HS and D2 official and he knew better and said he was ashamed of what he said. I told him I appreciated the apology. He told me that the coach has a history of being T'd / tossed. I told him that if my child played on that team, either my child or the coach would be gone. It was interesting to watch his players because even though they were a good team, when they made a mistake, they immediately looked at the coach (fear factor?). A couple of the parents commented that the coach was an ***. I also discussed this with the site manager and they said the team would not be invited back. I think this punishes the players, not the coach.

Someone earlier mentioned putting officials on a list. In my association, coaches are allowed to "black list" 2 officials and this only counts for the current year. The listing is done at the start of the season.

Sorry for the long post, but the more I thought about what happened, the more I regretted not tossing the coach. I was angry at him (I know we are not supposesed to be), but I was calm and professional when I T'd him. Thanks for you responses.
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