Free Throw Violation?

[JugglingReferee]

I think this is something that could be dealt with differently at different levels.

Perhaps up to HS I let it go. If the kid shoots/lands over/on the line, then you call it. Quietly approach the kid before his next shot, or afterwards and warn him about the line. Heck, even if you say, while spinning your head to the players lined up, "Watch your feet fellas." That you're not centering anyone out.

HS and above, maybe you call it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
I think this is something that could be dealt with differently at different levels.

Perhaps up to HS I let it go. If the kid shoots/lands over/on the line, then you call it. Quietly approach the kid before his next shot, or afterwards and warn him about the line. Heck, even if you say, while spinning your head to the players lined up, "Watch your feet fellas." That you're not centering anyone out.

HS and above, maybe you call it.

Juggler, they're talking about a FT shooter stepping over the line before shooting. Not "on" the line; "over" the line-- and "before" the free throw is shot.

[Dribble]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I disagree with that statement completely. If someone steps over the line, they call it. The films never lie. [/B]

I disagree with your statement...unless you're looking at a situation similar to Shaq in the All-star game, you're not going to see a D1 or NBA official call this. I've been to several camps led by these individiduals and the philosophy is clear...PASS!

It's like the old adage says, "Call the obvious!" If you're the only one who notices, then why nit-pick?

[FrankHtown]

It's my feeling over the line on a free throw attempt is one thing..over the line while getting ready to shoot is something else. That can be blamed on a slippery ball, bad toss by the official, ad infinitum, or ad nauseum. But,like I said, if you're going to call three seconds because an offensive player is touching the free throw line with his heel, you might as well call this too.

[ChuckElias]

You have to do something, b/c if he's stepped clear across the line, everybody has seen it. But was there any advantage gained? No. Remember that the point of the rule is to keep Wilt Chamberlain from jumping across the line and dunking the FT instead of shooting it from 15 feet from the rim. That's why the rule was put in place. Is little Jimmy doing that? No.

So here's what I would do. I would blow the whistle. Get the ball back from the kid. Rub my shoe over the same spot that the kid stepped on, like to get rid of some sweat on the floor. Tell the kid, "Stay behind the line, moron." Announce "2 shots" and give the kid the ball back.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
You have to do something, b/c if he's stepped clear across the line, everybody has seen it.


So here's what I would do. I would blow the whistle. Get the ball back from the kid. Rub my shoe over the same spot that the kid stepped on, like to get rid of some sweat on the floor. Tell the kid, "Stay behind the line, moron." Announce "2 shots" and give the kid the ball back.

And....what would you say if the coach of the non-shooting team now asks you why you didn't call the violation that everybody in the gym has seen? Do you handle it the exact same way if it occurs in the first quarter or in the last 2 seconds of a tie game?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
And....what would you say if the coach of the non-shooting team now asks you why you didn't call the violation that everybody in the gym has seen?

"Coach, he was just trying to protect your player, so he wouldn't slip during the rebounding action."

Do you handle it the exact same way if it occurs in the first quarter or in the last 2 seconds of a tie game?

Yes, of course. There's no way you're gonna call it in the last 2 seconds of a game unless the kid drives to the hoop for the layup.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

"Coach, he was just trying to protect your player, so he wouldn't slip during the rebounding action."

Yes, of course. There's no way you're gonna call it in the last 2 seconds of a game unless the kid drives to the hoop for the layup.

Whaaaat?

We're talking about a free-throw shooter stepping over the line before he shoots. What has that got to do with protecting a player from the other team who's on a lane line from slipping during a rebound?

What if the FT shooter has both feet over the line at the same time before he shoots?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 21st, 2006 at 12:08 PM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
We're talking about a free-throw shooter stepping over the line before he shoots. What has that got to do with protecting a player from the other team who's on a lane line from slipping during a rebound?

He's trying to get rid of the wet spot on the floor from the sweat so his opponent doesn't slip while trying to box out. He's a very thoughtful FT shooter.

What if the FT shooter has both feet over the line at the same time before he shoots?

It's a bigger wet spot than I thought it was.

Look, you want to do whatever you can NOT to call this violation in the closing seconds of a game. If you can't avoid it, then you have to call it, b/c everyone has seen it. But try to work with the kid. Get the ball back, pretend to clean up the sweat, tell him to stay behind the line, and let the kid shoot the FTs.

This is NOT a call that you want to hang your game on b/c he got no advantage, he didn't even break the intent of the rule. So try to avoid calling it. It has absolutely no effect on the game. If you're gonna call that, you should T the home team for not having an X in front of the scoring table. I mean that's literally how little this call is worth.

[Jimgolf]

You can't be a little out-of-bounds. This is the same thing.

Make the call. Or don't make the call and say you didn't see it. Stop using your private version of the rule book and use the one published by NFHS.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
This is NOT a call that you want to hang your game on b/c he got no advantage, he didn't even break the intent of the rule. So try to avoid calling it. It has absolutely no effect on the game. If you're gonna call that, you should T the home team for not having an X in front of the scoring table. I mean that's literally how little this call is worth. [/B]

I disagree completely with you on this one. If it's that obvious that everyone in the gym can see it, then it's gotta be called. It's not like stepping on a 2" line, where you have a little wiggle room.

And where do you cut it off? It's OK to step over the line before the shot? Right? Is it also OK to step over the line during the shot- i.e. during the shooting motion and while the shot is in the air before it hits the board? And if not, whatintheheck is the difference?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 21st, 2006 at 12:39 PM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I disagree completely with you on this one. If it's that obvious that everyone in the gym can see it, then it's gotta be called. It's not like stepping on a 2" line, where you have a little wiggle room.

I agree that if everybody sees it, you have to do something, although I would dearly love to find a way NOT to call the violation. And I stick to my previous comment that this call has absolutely NOTHING to do with the game. It is literally as much a part of the game as the X at the table.

It has NOTHING to do with the kid's FT: he hasn't shot it yet, so he's not getting an advantage by shooting from closer range or by running early for rebounding action.

It has NOTHING to do with sporting behavior: he's not defying you after you told him to stick to a spot.

It has NOTHING to do with a subsequent play: he's not going to be in a better position for his team's press, b/c he still has to be in the semi-circle when he shoots the ball.

How many times have you seen a kid in the semi-circle receive the ball and, in the process of setting his feet, put his toe on the line, then pull it back to where it should be? How many times you gonna call that violation? It's a violation. Go ahead and call it. What's the difference? The whole crowd didn't see it. So we're gonna make calls based on crowd consent? Obviously not.

There's no call in that case b/c the kid got no advantage and reset himself correctly before the FT. I think (I hope) that some similar thought process should take place in the other situation.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
You can't be a little out-of-bounds. This is the same thing.

It's not the same thing. It's obviously not the same thing. The similarity is the line. Almost everything else is different. There's no play going on, no offensive or defensive action around him.

If anybody thinks it's a big deal and MUST be called, then that's whey s/he should do. I'm trying to give a different way to look at it and to prevent a call on an action that has literally no effect on the game.

[mcdanrd]

Why is the official handing the ball to the FT shooter. Shouldn't that be a bounce pass from the lead?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
1) How many times have you seen a kid in the semi-circle receive the ball and, in the process of setting his feet, put his toe on the line, then pull it back to where it should be?

2)How many times you gonna call that violation?

What's the difference? The whole crowd didn't see it. [/B]

1) Quite often.

2) Very, very very seldom.

Yup, the whole crowd- who I can give a damn about- didn't see it clearly. But.....the opposing coach isn't completely sure either whether it's a violation or not from where he is, even if it's right in front of him......and also.....a toe on the line ain't gonna show up on the films as being a definite violation either, because of uncertainties caused by camera angles, etc. Iow, you do have room on that one to exercise a little judgement, even though you know a violation was technically committed

Jmo, Chuck, but I honestly feel that your options are limited though when you get such an obvious violation.