stay at table?

J.Albers · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 09, 2000, 04:31pm

In a recent HS varsity boys game, my partner called the 5th foul on a player. He reported the foul, notified the coach, then returned to the C position while the coach took the full 30 seconds to replace the player. Meanwhile, the player - while still on the court and before being replaced - appears (from my position as the Lead at the opposite end of the floor) to be gesturing at him or trying to encite the crowd in some way. Q. In that situation, what is the proper mechanic? Should the reporting official stay at or near the table until the replacement is in the game or should the Trail official handle it? We didn't find anything in the Federation Officials Manual on this.

Alaska Ref · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 09, 2000, 05:06pm

The Coach has 30 seconds to replace the player, if he takes over that, it's a delay of game "T". Now if you beleve the player deserves a "T" that "T" is on bench personal and an indirect on the coach. It sounds like your partner gave the coach 30 seconds and the got away from the benches. In our association we have the off official inform the coach and then the player, this gets the calling referee away from the coach and the possibility of a "T" resulting from emotions of the player and or coach. Not exactly by hoyle but it works.

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Don

b_silliman · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 09, 2000, 07:26pm

We also use the technique Don mentioned.

Especially with our emphasis on 10-5, if the technical foul is on a coach or bench personnel, the new trail official (3-person) or the other official will go to the bench area to ensure the coach knows his responsibilities under the rule. In this way there is no question about a later violation of the rule.

Joe Bob · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 11, 2000, 04:08am

Why do we as officials ask our partners to mediate a problem that, in the coaches point of view, was started by the calling official..??? If that official called all 5 fouls on the player maybe there is a problem. The calling official reported the foul, should have informed the player & the coach and should have asked the timer for 30 seconds. Stand your ground at or near the scorers table, wait for the substitute and enforce the penalty if he is late. No eye contact with the coach is required, no conversation is needed concerning the 5th foul and it makes little sense to "switch" with your partner so that he may take whatever flak the coach is offering. Most coaches want an explanation, fair & simple. Your partner can only give him second hand information and makes you look like you don't want to 'talk' about it. Don't stand toe to toe or even face to face with the coach, Stand off to his, or her, side and briefly answer his question then get on about your business. Chances are pretty good that 30 seconds is over, the subs on the floor and everyone is ready to get busy.

Jeremy Hohn · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 11, 2000, 06:49am

I echo Joe Bob's reply. I believe that too often on the 5th foul, we get too scared as the calling official, and very often the coach just wants an explanation and someone to talk to bacause often times his/her team isn't listening so 30 seconds isn't all that long to be a good listener! I agree with the notion that we put our co-official(s) on the spot on the 5th foul, and we can just suck it up, we can be strong and take care of it ourselves!

Indy_Ref · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 11, 2000, 11:37am

I concur with the last two posters. Do not be scared or afraid to handle this situation. You are a varsity referee, right? If so, you should be an above average official...one that can handle any situation.

Alaska Ref · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 12, 2000, 01:00am

Joe Bob, Jeremy and Indy.

In no way am i afraid to call or inform a coach or player of the 5th foul. At clinics the discussion of preventive officating pops up and the division-1 referee's recommend that after a "T" or on a 5th foul get away from the bench's! Why when calling a foul and going to administer free throw's, does the Officials Manual on page 36 say go around the players not thru them. (Don't be in their Face's) It makes good sense to just keep away, you don't have to prove that you can call a "T", it is smarter to preventive officate, just like we tell players to watch the knees, keep the elbows down etc., why call one when we should be talking them out of about 5 fouls per game.

NOTE: In the event a player has 5 fouls and then gets a "T" before being replaced it is not an "indirect on the coach"! he is still a player until he is replaced on the floor. I was incorrect in my first reply.

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Don

KDM · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 12, 2000, 02:06am

quote:
Originally posted by Alaska Ref on 01-12-2000 12:00 AM
Joe Bob, Jeremy and Indy.

In no way am i afraid to call or inform a coach or player of the 5th foul. At clinics the discussion of preventive officating pops up and the division-1 referee's recommend that after a "T" or on a 5th foul get away from the bench's! Why when calling a foul and going to administer free throw's, does the Officials Manual on page 36 say go around the players not thru them. (Don't be in their Face's) It makes good sense to just keep away, you don't have to prove that you can call a "T", it is smarter to preventive officate, just like we tell players to watch the knees, keep the elbows down etc., why call one when we should be talking them out of about 5 fouls per game.

NOTE: In the event a player has 5 fouls and then gets a "T" before being replaced it is not an "indirect on the coach"! he is still a player until he is replaced on the floor. I was incorrect in my first reply.

Don,

I think, in some situations, the best 'preventive' officiating is to call the foul or violation! Talking can only go so far. This is not an absolute of course, and only 'you' must decide what deserves 'talking' and what deserves 'calling'.

As far as the manual, it also says that the calling official should inform the coach of the 5th foul. Are you going to ignore that 'mechanic', but enforce the 'mechanic' for going around the players to report a foul to the table? Try to be CONSISTENT. The 'other level' guys are going to tell you what works best for them at the college level. If you are working high school, do it the high school way!!

The mechanic for 'going around' the players has more meaning than, as you stated, "being in their face's." The manuel requires the non-callling official(s) to watch the players while you are reporting the foul, therefore, you can report the foul without being obstructed and can get to the 'foul reporting area' quickly.

Also, if a player has received their 5th foul, once you notify the head coach, he/she is no longer a player. At that point, if this player receives a technical foul, it IS
charged to the head coach as an 'indirect'!
Please read Case Book Play 2.8.4. and the comment.

KDM

Alaska Ref · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 12, 2000, 04:09am

KDM

Well i was right the first time, i should have gone out to my car and got my rule book! After all it's only -45 below tonight. Thanks.

I still believe the philosophy and intent is NOT getting into a situation where you give a "T" to a coach or a player, when it can be avoided. A technical is a tool not a club.

I believe in talking to the player's in the post or saying "Hands Off" in the mid-Court! I want the game to have as few interruptions as possible. I have no heart burn issuing a "T" or calling foul's.

Let me ask you a question, how do you call the 3 second rule? If the ball is outside the 3 point arc and you have an offensive player with one foot in the lane, do you call it? According to the rules it's a violation! How much give do you give? A right call at the wrong time, is still a wrong call!

We are supposed to call the fouls where a player gains an advantage, yes their may be some contact but did it have anything to do with the play! If you put yourself too near a coach and he says something that you hear because you are standing next to him now you have to do something. Let's see coach you are 2 points ahead and your best player just fouled out, we are in the bonus plus the other team get's 2 free shots for the tech and the ball with 30 seconds on the clock.
I don't expect the player's and coach's to be in control of their emotions, but i do expect the referee's to be. I can almost read the local sports page, "referee call's technical with 30 seconds and local team looses big game"! Why would you want to place yourself in that situation? Now if the coach yells at you and half the gym hears what he said it's an easy call, and nobody will be suprised. Sports page, "Coach get's "T" with 30 seconds looses big game".

I could have used a better analogy on going around the players. One of the first things i learned in refereeing when you call a foul don't wade thru 'em, go around 'em.

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Don

Joe Bob · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 12, 2000, 06:33am

Alaska Ref..

You sound as if the majority of your time is spent avoiding confrontation with coaches. Most coaches are more comfortable with an official that will talk to them. It won't hurt you to follow up with a brief explanation when asked to do so. It shouldn't always be confrontational.. As for the conotation concerning the three second call.. That is probably the best time to call it, ie: no action underneath, ball moving around the perimeter.. Get him dumb butt out of there one way or the other. If he doesn't respond to your talking, then call three seconds. If you don't, chances are pretty good that by the time he gets the ball, or a shot is taken, then you have allowed him to be in there for 3 to lets say 7 or 8 seconds and that is a big offensive advantage.

PublicBJ · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 12, 2000, 09:47am

Now everyone, ease up on Alaska...

The calling official is responsible for notifying the head coach of the fifth foul. Doesn't mean we need to get close and have a long lengthy conversation about the fifth foul. Just a "Coach, that's five" and then find the player to inform him/her.

Now it's still common sense that the calling official is going to wait for the sub. Personally, I'm nowhere close to the table while waiting, I'm probably in mid-court standing professionally waiting for the sub (like during a time out). If necessary, I'll inform the timer to track 30 secs., etc.

The reason that I'm not close to the table is so that if the coach wants to make a stink, he has to be pretty loud about it. I want everyone in the gym to know what the coach did to get a technical, if one is warranted.

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Brian Johnson

[This message has been edited by PublicBJ (edited January 12, 2000).]

KDM · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 12, 2000, 06:10pm

quote:
Originally posted by Alaska Ref on 01-12-2000 03:09 AM
KDM

Well i was right the first time, i should have gone out to my car and got my rule book! After all it's only -45 below tonight. Thanks.

I still believe the philosophy and intent is NOT getting into a situation where you give a "T" to a coach or a player, when it can be avoided. A technical is a tool not a club.

I believe in talking to the player's in the post or saying "Hands Off" in the mid-Court! I want the game to have as few interruptions as possible. I have no heart burn issuing a "T" or calling foul's.

Let me ask you a question, how do you call the 3 second rule? If the ball is outside the 3 point arc and you have an offensive player with one foot in the lane, do you call it? According to the rules it's a violation! How much give do you give? A right call at the wrong time, is still a wrong call!

We are supposed to call the fouls where a player gains an advantage, yes their may be some contact but did it have anything to do with the play! If you put yourself too near a coach and he says something that you hear because you are standing next to him now you have to do something. Let's see coach you are 2 points ahead and your best player just fouled out, we are in the bonus plus the other team get's 2 free shots for the tech and the ball with 30 seconds on the clock.
I don't expect the player's and coach's to be in control of their emotions, but i do expect the referee's to be. I can almost read the local sports page, "referee call's technical with 30 seconds and local team looses big game"! Why would you want to place yourself in that situation? Now if the coach yells at you and half the gym hears what he said it's an easy call, and nobody will be suprised. Sports page, "Coach get's "T" with 30 seconds looses big game".

I could have used a better analogy on going around the players. One of the first things i learned in refereeing when you call a foul don't wade thru 'em, go around 'em.

Don,

At minus 45*F, I wouldn't go out either!

But Don, the 'T' foul is not any different for me as a traveling call, or a player control foul. Honestly, when the situation warrants, we have to administer the 'T' foul.
No, I don't go looking for it ... but I will not hide from it! I don't "give" technicals, they "earn" it. And forget about the headlines in the sports section of the paper. Who cares? I don't! But the first time the headline reads "Refs Call Great Game ... Warriors Lose By 1 In 3 OT's", then I'll pay attention.

Also, I'm puzzled by the comment that 'a right call at the wrong time, is still a wrong call'. Does that mean that 'a wrong call at the right time, is still a right call'?

And finally, the answer to the 3-second question, as you asked it, is YES.

KDM
(stay warm!!)