No-call train wreck?

[mplagrow]

Glad I was working the table and not officiating this one. A1 is going for the drive from the elbow. B1 is standing in LGP at the block, ready to take the charge. A1 looks like he's going to drive through and everyone cringes for the train wreck. At the last second, A1 tries to pull up and shoot over the top. However, he loses control of the ball as he jumps. His hands go up for the shot with no ball. The ball gets trapped between A1's stomach and B1's chest. A1's momentum pushes the ball into B1, who falls backward. A1 falls on top of him with the ball still inbetween.

It looked terrible. It looked like A1 clobbered B1, but from the side it was pretty clear that the loose ball was a buffer between the two for pretty much the whole play. The ref had nothing. Finally, A1 grabbed the ball and rolled over, and it ended with a travel call.

Does anyone call an offensive foul on this? Obviously the whole gym was screaming for it, but A1 was not in control of the ball, which was pinned between the players as they went down.

[mick]

Originally posted by mplagrow
Glad I was working the table and not officiating this one. A1 is going for the drive from the elbow. B1 is standing in LGP at the block, ready to take the charge. A1 looks like he's going to drive through and everyone cringes for the train wreck. At the last second, A1 tries to pull up and shoot over the top. However, he loses control of the ball as he jumps. His hands go up for the shot with no ball. The ball gets trapped between A1's stomach and B1's chest. A1's momentum pushes the ball into B1, who falls backward. A1 falls on top of him with the ball still inbetween.

It looked terrible. It looked like A1 clobbered B1, but from the side it was pretty clear that the loose ball was a buffer between the two for pretty much the whole play. The ref had nothing. Finally, A1 grabbed the ball and rolled over, and it ended with a travel call.

Does anyone call an offensive foul on this? Obviously the whole gym was screaming for it, but A1 was not in control of the ball, which was pinned between the players as they went down.

Forget the ball.
Forget the player control.
B1 had legal guarding position.
A1 knocked him down.
Watcha got?
mick

[mplagrow]

Well, Mick, it sure as heck looked like a textbook charge. Barring the whole lack of direct contact thing, that's what's getting me. Admittedly, if a player uses the ball to push off an opponent, I'm calling it every time. But he wasn't holding the ball. If I was reffing it, I would have called the charge and not looked back, though, if you want to put me on the spot.

[mick]

Originally posted by mplagrow
Well, Mick, it sure as heck looked like a textbook charge. Barring the whole lack of direct contact thing, that's what's getting me. Admittedly, if a player uses the ball to push off an opponent, I'm calling it every time. But he wasn't holding the ball. If I was reffing it, I would have called the charge and not looked back, though, if you want to put me on the spot.

Me, too.
Team control.
"Other way".
Easy call.
mick

[Adam]

If nothing else, you've got a foul on A1 when he falls on top of B1. But, I don't think the charge is too hard to justify here.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by mick

Forget the ball.
Forget the player control.
B1 had legal guarding position.
A1 knocked him down.
Watcha got?
mick

By that logic, A1 goes up for a shot, B1 swings down to block the shot and the force of the blocked shot...without verticality, and no direct contact...knocks A1 down, foul on B1?

[mplagrow]

Interesting point. The ball can contribute to some ugly looking plays. Last night in a girls JV, A1 had the ball behind her head soccer-style for a pass. B1 came from behind, placed one hand cleanly on the ball and pulled down hard. Well, you guessed it, A1 refused to let go and the B1's force pulled her backward down to the ground before the ball came out. A1 fell hard, hit her head on the ground, and the fans screamed while B1 went for the lay-up. But there's absolutely nothing there. BZ, I agree on that one, there's nothing you can really call, is there? I'm having a hard time reconciling that with the first sitch.

[mick]

Originally posted by blindzebra

Forget the ball.
Forget the player control.
B1 had legal guarding position.
A1 knocked him down.
Watcha got?
mick

By that logic, A1 goes up for a shot, B1 swings down to block the shot and the force of the blocked shot...without verticality, and no direct contact...knocks A1 down, foul on B1? [/QUOTE]

That's pretty silly.
Did B1 do something wrong?

In the original case, A1 made illegal contact.
In you case there was no illegal contact.
Where's the foul?
mick

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by mick

By that logic, A1 goes up for a shot, B1 swings down to block the shot and the force of the blocked shot...without verticality, and no direct contact...knocks A1 down, foul on B1?

That's pretty silly.
Did B1 do something wrong?

In the original case, A1 made illegal contact.
In you case there was no illegal contact.
Where's the foul?
mick [/QUOTE]

A1 made contact with THE BALL in the original play, that is no different than my play.

No contact/no foul, ugly does not equal automatic whistle.

[mplagrow]

Does the rulebook specifically reference an offensive player using the ball to push off? Does it state the player must be in control of the ball for there to be illegal contact?

[Texas Aggie]

If you aren't dribbling, passing, shooting, or holding the ball, initiating contact with the ball is the same as initiating contact with another part of your body. If I have the ball chest high and use the ball to push you, who has LGP, off, its still a foul. There IS contact -- you can't hide behind the fact that you use the ball and not your hand.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
If you aren't dribbling, passing, shooting, or holding the ball, initiating contact with the ball is the same as initiating contact with another part of your body. If I have the ball chest high and use the ball to push you, who has LGP, off, its still a foul. There IS contact -- you can't hide behind the fact that you use the ball and not your hand.

Citation from the rule book to back that up?

FYI, the ball was NOT in A1's control in the original play.

[mick]

Originally posted by mplagrow
Does the rulebook specifically reference an offensive player using the ball to push off? Does it state the player must be in control of the ball for there to be illegal contact?

Illegal contact is shown as this stuff:
10-6-1 - "A player shall not: hold, push, charge, trip; nor impede the progress of an opponent...; nor use any rough tactics."

A personal foul is shown as this stuff:
4-19-1 - "...Involves illegal contact with an opponent..., which hinders an opponent.... "

Did A1 knock B1 down by a rough tactic and also hinder B1?
Judge it.
Call it.
mick

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by mick

Illegal contact is shown as this stuff:
10-6-1 - "A player shall not: hold, push, charge, trip; nor impede the progress of an opponent...; nor use any rough tactics."

A personal foul is shown as this stuff:
4-19-1 - "...Involves illegal contact with an opponent..., which hinders an opponent.... "

Did A1 knock B1 down by a rough tactic and also hinder B1?
Judge it.
Call it.
mick

Nice edit job, too bad you left out the part that said what kind of illegal contact.

Here is the complete rule, and note the words WITH THE BALL are absent:

ART. 1 . . . A player shall not: hold, push, charge, trip; nor impede the progress of an opponent by extending an arm, shoulder, hip or knee, or by bending the body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics. He/she shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball. The use of hands on an opponent in any way that inhibits the freedom of movement of the opponent or acts as an aid to a player in starting or stopping is not legal. Extending the arms fully or partially other than vertically so that freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms occurs is not legal. These positions are employed when rebounding, screening or in various aspects of postplay. A player may not use the forearm and hand to prevent an opponent from attacking the ball during a dribble or when throwing for goal. A player may hold the hands and arms in front of his/her face or body for protection and to absorb force from an imminent charge by an opponent. It is a form of pushing when the player holding the ball is contacted by a defensive player who approaches from behind. Contact that is caused by the momentum of a player who has thrown for a goal is a form of charging.

[JRutledge]

I usually agree with Mick on just about everything, but I am going to have to agree with BZ on this one. The contact is not with the player, it is with the ball. I could see if the player purposely used the ball to hit the player, then I can go along with something being called, but it would not be a common foul. You would not call a foul on a player that throws the ball off a player as that player is falling out of bounds. Why would you call a foul in this situation?

Peace