PEEWEE gone bad

[hooper]

Mom,

For new and young officials, keeping track of alternating posessions can be one of things that can be very difficult. There's a lot going on in the game and unless the scorekeeper has a posession arrow or the ref is really good at using the rubber-band-around-alternating-wrists trick, you'll often get one team getting the ball two, three or even four times in a row. And if the scorekeeper isn't good at helping the ref (if they have a posession arrow), then that could cause problems as well.

The other thing that can happen is that the referee might make a call but not signal it very well, causing confusion by the fans over whether the alternating posession rule comes into play.

It just sounds like the youngster who was refereeing was in over his head. Most basketball games have at least two and often three referees. One newbie alone can become overwhelmed pretty quickly.

I would just chalk this up to a bad day and let it go. None of us want to see our kids cheated out of something, but this can be used as a character building lesson in what to do on the court when you feel like things aren't going your way.

Guaranteed, if your child keeps playing, they'll have games like this once in awhile. Tell your child, "Sometimes you have to play better than the other team and overcome the other circumstances in the game as well." That could be officiating, the other coach yelling like a howler monkey, rabid parents screaming from the stands, a smelly defender, a ball that feels too flat, a gym that has no room on the sidelines, a defender who's quicker or bigger or more aggressive, teammates who aren't as good as you or ball hogs, etc.

(P.S. JRutledge is a little prickly. Don't take it personally.)

[JRutledge]

I do not think it is I that is prickly. I am not getting mad about a game that is played by an 8 or 9 year old.

This just shows why games at this level should be banned and the only games kids should play are in the backyard or in the driveway while they are at this age. Adults just ruin the experience. Maybe that is why our children are getting fatter and not playing outside like they did when most of us were at those ages.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

Mom,

Welcome to the board I admire your courage, calm and persistence. We don't get a lot of civilians here. When we do, they're inevitably here to whine about how some official cost their team a game, elicit proof that some official cost them the game, or win a bet made during some lunch-time pickup game. Such people are usually run out of Dodge.

But as a parent of young kids, one of whom, my oldest, began playing basketball in 4th grade last year, I'd be a little upset too if my daughter came off the floor bleeding and bruised. It doesn't take a rules expert to tell when a game is getting out of hand.

Just some random thoughts for you.

First, I doubt the officiating was deliberately lopsided. It is entirely possible that the official was poorly trained and in over his head. You might think that it would be easier to do a good job on a little kids game than on say a high school game. But the truth is that 4th grade basketball is really, really hard to get right. There are sooooo many violations, so little skill, so little predicability and so many bizarre things that happen all the time. It's almost cruel that we make officials start at that level and earn their way up to easier to call games.

Second, somebody hired the ref, and you might be able to talk to that person. Take rainmaker's advice on that. The best possible outcome from talking to the assigner is that the official would receive the necessary training. As has been stated, it's hard to get good officials to work at that level. The pay stinks, the level of play is terrible and many of the parents are overbearing pains in the ***. Any official at that level who is any good will soon move on to where the pay is better, the play is better, and ... well, the parents stay about the same The reality is the official is probably going to be some high school kid working for minimum wage.

Third, if you get no joy with the assigner, look around for another league to put your daughter in. If enough parents do this, the league is going to have to do something to stem the tide.

Fourth, if you want something done right, sometimes you have to do it yourself. If good officiating at that level is important to you, and you can't find it anywhere, then pick up the gauntlet and don the stripes. A lot of good officials got their start because they looked at some hapless fool in stripes and thought "I could do better," and then did.

Fifth, the point has been beaten to death, but this is fourth grade basketball. In my daughter's league there was no clock, no score kept and no officials. The two coaches called what needed calling from the sideline to keep the game moving along. That fact that people really care who wins or loses a fourth grade basketball game is patently absurd. The only two questions I ever asked my daughter after the game were: "Did you have fun?" and "What did you learn this week?" What else matters?

[momstwo]

Rut: Thats what I was waiting for..I knew it would come out eventually. Good for you! Now we all know your problem is with children and they "shouldnt be allowed". Sad Sad Man!!! I guess you would really be ticked if I told you I have one on the 5th grade boys team. Oh no another unwanted player..lol You are a funny one my friend.

Back in the Saddle: Thank you for your advice. No its not the WNBA but you have a child that played 4th grade last year, you know how much fun they have and when something like this happens, its upsetting to them. Now I have some great info from some great people on here and I will definetly share it with her. Thanks again

Hooper: You have been great!! Thanks for being a decent human being, I know its hard for others but I guess Ill just have to look past RUT!!

[Edited by momstwo on Jan 19th, 2006 at 03:57 AM]

[dave30]

At lower level games, 6th grade and below, I wish we could assign two parents....one from each team to videotape the game...and they are the only ones allowed to attend. Then we could have fun, the kids would have fun...and the parents could get together later and watch the video and gripe about the refs on their own time! It would save a lot of hassle and stupidity.

[momstwo]

Okay just to clarify...I GOT THE POINT!!!! Now you can all move on to bigger and more exciting things! Thanks for the help and criticism.

[dknick78]

Momstwo,

I watched my daugther play AAU for five years and coached my sons AAU team for another five. I wasn't a coach that was always on the officials but, I did my share of questioning officials' calls.

I wanted to stay close to the kids and basketball because I enjoyed it so much. I have been officiating for the last three years. I wish I would have taken the steps to get certifide prior to my coaching. I know that I would have been a better coach. I actually know the rules now. I now watch my son in High School from the stands. I have a very different prospective now. I can't tell you how many times I have turned to one of my fellow parents who was questioning a call and say "well he is right".

Sure officials make mistakes. We are human. I sincerely believe that 99.9% of those who wear the stripes and are certifide are trying thier level best to get it right.

I love the game and it can be a great teaching tool for kids. It can teach them about life. How to win and how to lose. How to work hard and take instruction.

My advice would be to not let an inexperienced elementary school official cause you to lose sleep. Better days ahead.

IMHO

dknick78

[Edited by dknick78 on Jan 19th, 2006 at 09:10 AM]

[bgtg19]

My apologies for not contributing anything to this particular thread, but I just thought I'd say this:

This thread is a microcosm of The Official Forum and I was thoroughly entertained by it. A parent/fan without perspective; the fun being had at that parent/fan's expense; the genuine attempts to help by the eternal optimists; Rut; the reactions to Rut; and the unveiling, quite a ways into the thread, of the dreaded but seemingly inevitable "over the back" complaint. I may think of more later, but about the only two things missing were an actual rules question and a picture of a squirrel. Great stuff.

[Jurassic Referee]

[Man In Blue]

You're right. Mom- these have all been things we wanted to say to parents on the court but we are professional and walk away.

Without seeing the "tape" I'll be this offical missed alot of calls like:

1. Over the back
2.High dribble/ that's a carry
3. They're reaching in
4. That's a kick
5. The ball hit the top of the backboard- out of bounds
6. You can't slide on the floor with the ball- travel!
7. The ref made the call that cost us the game!

If you are as interested as you say, pick up a rule book, From you're post it doesn't appear you have. Then search this site for rule myths.

I have coached girls this age. They are not incontrol of their bodies yet. They have long nails and push and shove alot. The scrathes and blood are part of the game. I would bet that if you checked the girls on the other team they have the same scratches and bleeding. There is no way 1 official will see that happen. Besides it is an accident and calling 100 fouls won't stop it.

Take this as a learning experence and then teach your girls to make lay ups. 2 made lay up and you wouldn't have posted here.

[JCrow]

Momstwo:

Been doing Youth League work for a lot of years. some positive advice:

1. Get involved. Volunteer. Our YMCA Youth League use to pay volunteer parents to attend Ref Schools. Leagues that use Refs without training often have trouble with Safety. There is a League in town that uses HS kids. The Youth Games get too rough in my opinion for young children with untrained HS kids reffing.

2. Once you know the Rules. You'll be able to Coach better. You mentioned an Uneven Foul Count as a beef. There's nothing inherently wrong with an uneven foul count. Many times it's a reflection of Coaching. Unless a Coach teaches their kids not to hand-check and to screen correctly....your Team will pick-up a lot of unnecesary fouls that may look unfair to the untrained fan.

3. Don't get the kids worked up about the officating in any case. At that age they don't care...UNLESS the parents make a big deal out of it.

[SmokeEater]

It was reasons similar to how this post has turned out that the Community Club League stopped keeping score for divisions under 11 years old. Now the kids just go out and play to learn the game. Parents volunteer to keep time and teh coaches are allowed on the floor to help the kids with positioning and movement. 1 referee is all we ever need for these games because s/he basically is there to start the game and inbounds the ball.

[Edited by SmokeEater on Jan 19th, 2006 at 10:26 AM]

[just another ref]

Originally posted by momstwo
Rut: Your a Jerk! I hope your career falls flat on its face and you get to officate over nothing but 4th grade girls, they could teach you a thing or two about class.

You wouldn't really wish that on the 4th grade girls, would you?

[momstwo]

Just another ref: No! Actually I wouldn't. I was just tired of him slamming the younger teams. I had a really hard time trying to hold my tongue and just accept what everyone was saying, but being told that no one cares about the 4th grade teams was getting a little old. I believe the truly good officals care about all the teams the WNBA and the Peewee teams. No matter what the answer was I read them ALL, and appreciate the input. I wanting to let you know I was linked to this site off of the site for the complex where my daughter played, It was totally made in error. I was hoping to speak with the offical who officated the game and not "attack" him but ask him about the game. I dont see why that should be a problem.
Once again thank you for being so polite and Im sorry if I sound snotty or rude to the other people on here, I just dont like being accused of being a "bad parent". As I said before Im not a trouble maker in the stands. I just didnt know it was such a crime to question a refs calls.
For those of you that just smelled fresh blood....I know I know "pick up a rule book" "pick up whistle" No need to get into that again. Got that 70 something comments ago.

[Man In Blue]

Never ever go looking for an official after a game. Nothing good can come from it. A smart official will NOT talk to you! A bad one will and it always turns out bad. And the bottom line is the coach loses. You get labeled as a trouble maker and a problem. No matter what happened in the game- if you go looking for an official, even "just to talk", it is you who can't let it go. These convesations always start out "i have a question" and turn into questioning an officials judgement.