PEEWEE gone bad

[momstwo]

Once again to those of you who werent on full attack, Thank you!! To the others Have a Nice Evening!! I am RELAXED!!!!

[Stat-Man]

Momstwo:

I've been a volunteer scorer/statistician for CYO games (grades 4-6 and 7-8), so I do kind of have an idea of games on this level.

A lot of the game crew (scorers/timers) on this level are volunteer, and with games on weekends, it's hard to find people who are willing and/or able to serve in that capacity. I've done many home games with a minor as the timer. Yes, they do tend to make "rookie" mistakes, but luckily, I know enough to remind them when the clock should start/stop and stuff like that. Sometimes with two complete novices at the table, its hard for them to help each other out like this. It is frustrating from a fan's standpoint, but try to have some patience. After all, if it was your first time working at the table and you had a rough outing, I'd imagine you wouldn't want people to be overly critical of you. Also keep in mind that on this level, a good number of the officials are rookies and invariably make a few mistakes.

Another thing I can suggest based on my experience is don't get overly worked up over games at this level. Yes, it can be irritating if you think officials miss calls or the table crew is screwing up. But most of the times, the kids at that age don't know or don't care. They are too busy trying to play their hearts out. One year we had a team of mostly 4th graders who was placed into a division of all 6th graders. We didn't win a single game, but the kids played hard each game and never gave up, in spite of what the adults may or may not have done. In fact, we lost one game 46-0, and the kids were still in good spirts afterwards.

Lastly, I'd like to add that part of the reason I'm no longer volunteering as table crew for my school's CYO teams is because of the adults who thought they were the focus and not the kids. I personally think there are too many adults who do things that take the fun out of youth sports. Sometimes they are unaware of their actions, and perhaps some don't care one way or another. But it's sad to see these adults lose sight of the fact that the 4th-6th grade level of our CYO league is supposed to be instructional. I don't put up with unnecessary crap when I am paid, so I'm definitely not going to tolerate it as a volunteer.

I'm not sure what to say in closing, except to try to use close games like this as a learning experience. You can always tell your child to keep working hard and it will eventually lead to good and better things. Or you might ask them what they think they need to work on (such as ball handling, passing, or shooting). As much as losing is not fun, especially in a 6-4 barn-burner ( ), try to teach your young athlete that they can learn to be better from a loss and that it should motivate him or her to keep playing hard.

I know this isn't written from a referee's perspective (my informal officiating of 2nd and 3rd graders notwithstanding), but I do hope you can take something meaningful out of this post.

[Edited by Stat-Man on Jan 18th, 2006 at 11:57 PM]

[fonzzy07]

Stat-Man
Well said. I hope this helps her get it. If this doesn't shes never gonna understand.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by momstwo
Actually, I respect what some of you have to say and the others that felt the need to attack, well I'll file that in a special place. I believe one of the first things I said was that it wasnt my intention to offend anyone. Sounds like some of you use this board as a way to offend. No it wasnt the advice I asked for because alot of you simply assumed you knew what kind of "parent" I am. Way off base guys!!! Also it is beneath me to argue with you MTD. I dont have time nor the patient to argue with hateful people. To those of you that helped THANK YOU!!!

Dear Mom:

Who said anything about arguing with you? I am the father of two teenage boys who participate competively in baseball, swimming, cross country, and also played basketball competively until they entered jr. H.S.

I am a H.S. and college basketball official and also officiate H.S. baseball, fast pitch softball, and soccer. I have spent ten years as a basketball rules interpreter and officials instructor. I sit on national basketball officiating rules committees. I have coached my sons' basketball teams and have helped coached my sons' baseball teams.

As a parent I have observed first hand how irrational parents become at their children's sporting events. I have on numerous occasions have had to remind parents of players on my sons' teams who have gone nuts about officiating or umpiring and these were games involving players twelve years of age and younger.

Go back and read your initial post. You sound just like a disgruntled parent. You blamed the officials for your daughter's team's failure to win the game. You need to step back and decided why you want your child to participate in sports. There have been many posts in this thread giving you some good advice about how to approach youth sports and how to become an official. I beseech you to become a registered basketball official in Arkansas. Your point of view will change completely.

MTD, Sr.

[momstwo]

Stat-Man, Thank you so much for being so nice. As I said before I was not trying to cause problems. Simply looking for an answer that a 9 year old would understand. I will print your reply and let her read that. You are the only one who put it in words that would be helpful instead of critcizing. It was questioned why I came to this board, I came to it because I thought I would get a professional answer. Thank God I finally did!!

[Stat-Man]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Your point of view will change completely.

MTD, Sr. [/B]

Amen there. During one of our CYO seasons, when I was still involved, the referees didn't show up for our last home game, so for the 4th-6th boys game, I was asked to be an official along with a parent who volunteered. (The league does allow this in a last resort situation, but also adds that if teams agree to this, they can't complain to the league after the game about the officiating).

I can tell you that in spite of what I consider decent rule knowledge, I thought it was a true challenge to serve as an official for the game. This was my first and last time officiating in a "real" game, but only because I like what I do now too much to give it up.

Yes, as a fan or player, I still might not like some calls and may even complain, but at least I remember the 6th grade game where I realized that it's defintiely not an easy job to do.

[Stat-Man]

Originally posted by momstwo
Stat-Man, Thank you so much for being so nice. As I said before I was not trying to cause problems. Simply looking for an answer that a 9 year old would understand. I will print your reply and let her read that. You are the only one who put it in words that would be helpful instead of critcizing. It was questioned why I came to this board, I came to it because I thought I would get a professional answer. Thank God I finally did!!

Momstwo:

This is a forum mostly for basketball officiating and rules, so posts like yours are kind of the exception to the rule. Also, we do get a number of fans and parents here who think officials are to blame for their team's poor performance (never mind the poor shooting or the turnovers...), so after a while, it just gets to a point where parents venting about a game seems to get old. Try not to take it personally. Also, we have many regulars here who love to show off their sense of humor. Just try to bear with them.

That said, however, there are many officials on here who can answer any questions you may have about rules. Some of the regulars here serve as trainers to other officials or even as rule interpreters (telling officials how to enforce the rules). So any rule question that is posed politely will usually get the answer it deserves.

Besides, they let me hang out here, so they can't be all bad


[Edited by Stat-Man on Jan 19th, 2006 at 12:20 AM]

[just another ref]

Mom, the answer you give your 9 year old is simple. If she brings up the officiating,which would surprise me, and the reason would be she heard some "concerned parents" screaming about it, simply tell her "Honey, it's a tough job, and I'm sure the refs did the best they could. (even if you don't really believe it yourself) The refs will make mistakes but it will even out in the long run because half the mistakes will favor your team. You just go out and have fun and do your best and don't worry too much about the officials."

How often does a thread generate 3 pages in 2 hours here?

[momstwo]

Just another Ref: Thank you for your advice. I obviously touched a sore spot with alot of people on here. Yes, she and the rest of her team came off the court commenting about the officating. (keep in mind three of the girls were bleeding and a few other banged up) But you are absolutely right that is how it SHOULD have been handled. Like I said before Im not the parent in the stand yelling. This one was hard to stomach though, and Im sorry if that bothers some people in here. I am new to this my children have been playing for three years and this is the first time I have ever had this happen. Wrong place to post obviously. Now maybe all the ones that chewed me out will sleep a little better cause for a change they got to chew on a parent..lol

[Edited by momstwo on Jan 19th, 2006 at 01:11 AM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by momstwo
Just another Ref: Thank you for your advice. I obviously touched a sore spot with alot of people on here.

This one was hard to stomach though, and Im sorry if that bothers some people in here.

I am new to this my children have been playing for three years and this is the first time I have ever had this happen. Wrong place to post obviously. Now maybe all the ones that chewed me out will sleep a little better cause for a change they got to chew on a parent..lol

You fall into the common trap on that many fall into when they get on the internet. They really think that this is all about them. I know I do not care about some 4th grade parent in my backyard. Why would I care what you say any differently? Personally I have had a lot of laughs and giggles reading what you keep saying. Come back and talk to us when your daughter is in the WNBA. Maybe then we will care.

Peace

[hooper]

Mom,

This forum is not a friendly place to coaches or fans. You should know that up front. Second (and unfortunately) most people in this forum will not admit that there are ANY bad refs. Many tend to blame the players and parents, in fact.

If the officiating was that bad (and it could have been) I recommend talking with athletic director at the organization that hosted the game (ie: the person who runs the league). Ask him or her to come watch a couple of the games that these particular officials are working. Perhaps they had an off night. Perhaps they're novices and don't have much training.

My guess is not that they were not favoring one team but that they just weren't very good at what they were doing.

On the flipside, when you do see good refs, report them to the athletic director as well! He or she is usually the person who hires the refs and will continue to assign games to the ones who get good reviews and comments.

That being said, know that there will always be games that you think are called badly (and you could be right), but try to not emphasize this with your kids. Tell them "Well, refs are people too and they're doing their best. Just do your best and don't worry about them."

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by momstwo
Just another Ref: Thank you for your advice. I obviously touched a sore spot with alot of people on here. Yes, she and the rest of her team came off the court commenting about the officating. (keep in mind three of the girls were bleeding and a few other banged up) But you are absolutely right that is how it SHOULD have been handled. Like I said before Im not the parent in the stand yelling. This one was hard to stomach though, and Im sorry if that bothers some people in here. I am new to this my children have been playing for three years and this is the first time I have ever had this happen. Wrong place to post obviously. Now maybe all the ones that chewed me out will sleep a little better cause for a change they got to chew on a parent..

Mom -- I've been away from the board for a few hours, being a mom, and a ref, both in the same evening. I have raised three kids, and I'm still raising a fourth, and I've reffed at least three thousand games so far, and I've seen a lot of sports from both perspectives, and I can tell you that it's you that's blowing things out of proportion, not us.

I learned the lesson about refs being truly biased when my daughter was playing about 12 years ago. She was a freshman, playing varsity, and they went to the state tournament. The reffing was so blatantly one-sided, that when I signed up to ref, and brought up that game, it was remembered by the person who had been in charge of refs for that tournament.

After the game was over, my daughter's coach got all the girls and all the parents in the locker room and gave them a talk. "You can't blame it on the refs. WHen they're prejudiced like that [my daughter, the coach and the whole team except one player, were black] you just have to rise above it. You didn't do that. You let them get under your skin, and you got rattled. Would you have won with different refs? Who knows? It doesn't matter, cuz these were the refs we had. Now you go home and figure out how to win tomorrow. Forget today. Let's do well enough tomorrow that even with the same refs, we'll win. You are all great players. You are all stars. You can do this, and don't let any stupid red-necks take it away from you. It's your attitude that counts, not theirs."

I learned a lesson from that speech. As a parent, you can't protect your child from all the bad things that happen. You do the best you can to protect them, and then you have to help them face the rest. Okay, so they had a bad game and some of them got hurt. Well, that probably shouldn't have happened, but it did. Give the kids bandaids for the scratches, wipe their tears, and talk about what's next. Making the whole thing into a federal case tells the girls that they don't have to control their own attitudes, and it's okay to blame bad things on someone else. This doesn't help them grow up.

As a ref, what I've seen is that if the players are allowed to blame their problems on the refs, they don't get better. The best teams, the best coaches, the best players adjust to the reffing that's at hand, and play through it. Girls the age of your daughter aren't going to be able to do that very well, physically, but you can at least start teaching them the concept.

"Yea, maybe that ref doesn't have much experience, but that doesn't matter. Let's work on good chest passes. I want to see every one dribble the ball at least once during this game. Who hasn't had a turn yet?" And so on , and so forth.

It might be a good thing to let the assignor or trainer know that this ref has some things to work on, but you don't say it like, "This ref cost my little Susie that game". The wording is, "How do you want your refs to handle such and such a situation? What is the rule about such and so?" Listen, listen, listen. Then the responst is, "Well you might want to talk to #39. I"m not sure he has that concept fully down-loaded yet." ANd that's it. Nothing else. The more you say, the less the assignor will listen.

Lastly, (yea, I'm a preacher in my spare time!) you really need to learn how to handle it when your daughter loses, and you need to teach her how to handle it. Do you know how many basketball games Michael Jordan lost in his lifetime? I don't know the exact number, but it's way more than half the games he played. MORE THAN HALF!!!! Nobody wins all their games. Anyone that does, never learns, never grows, never improves. Please do everyone around you a favor and find a way to get past the Little League Mom stuff. It's definitely not good parenting.

[momstwo]

Hopper and Rainmaker..Thank you for the advice. Both points taken. Some people just handle themselves better than others, thanks for being those people.

JRutledge: Why are you so nasty? Did I ever say my daughter was going to the WNBA? Did I ever say that she was some kind of superstar?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by momstwo
JRutledge: Why are you so nasty? Did I ever say my daughter was going to the WNBA? Did I ever say that she was some kind of superstar?

I am having fun with you, because you really believe what you say. You really think that something significant is going to be done at a 4th grade game. I did not call you names or say anything vulgar to you. I think you do not have perspective one what life is really about and your kids are not going to learn the necessary lesson from this situation. If the score is 6 to 4, not sure what the officials could have done. That means no one is putting the ball and the basket. And at that level I am not surprised that is a problem.

Now when your kid gets to Tennessee, give us all a call and tell us how much this game really affected your child's life.

Peace

[just another ref]

I find it interesting that a man as important as Rut has posted half a dozen times on a thread about 4th grade basketball, and even more interesting that the theme of his posts are that 4th grade basketball doesn't really matter anyhow.