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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 07:12am
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I had another situation in a game last week that made me think I should start a thread in which we could make a list of the items for which we really desire the Fed to issuing rulings.
Let's gather all these grey areas together in the hope of the NFHS clarifying them.
If you recall, I observed a play a couple of week ago that sparked that interrupted dribble/backcourt violation thread.

Now I had:
1. OOB call, white ball.
2. Lengthy substitution process conducted.
3. Three dumb refs put the ball in play following a lengthy substitution process with only nine girls on the floor.
(I was the C and am now hanging my head in shame. )
The inbounding team only has four as one of its players believing she was substituted out of the game went and sat on the bench.
4. The ball is passed in and the team with four immediately scores! (Yeah, that's essentially three on five for those of you counting, since white had one player OOB making the throw-in.)
5. I can now clearly see only 4 players for white on the floor and sound the whistle stopping play. (Question 1: Perhaps I shouldn't have done this, but I reacted to the odd situation of only four on the floor. Maybe the correct procedure is to just continue with this team down a player until a foul/violation occurs or a TO is requested?)
6. The fifth girl for white never moved from the bench the entire time. She never tried to report the table or reenter the floor during the play. She simply sat there unaware of the situation. The coach was not aware of the mistake either.
7. There was no intent to deceive and with the rule change to 10-3-3, I do not believe that this team can be punished with a T. My partner wanted to charge the technical foul, but I talked him out of it as I couldn't come up with any rule that backed assessing one.

Therefore, I want a 10.3.3SitC which is similar to 10.3.3SitB except that the missing player makes no effort to return the game. He/she simply sits on the bench while the team plays with four. What should the officials do?





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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 09:23am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
I had another situation in a game last week that made me think I should start a thread in which we could make a list of the items for which we really desire the Fed to issuing rulings.
Let's gather all these grey areas together in the hope of the NFHS clarifying them.
If you recall, I observed a play a couple of week ago that sparked that interrupted dribble/backcourt violation thread.

Now I had:
1. OOB call, white ball.
2. Lengthy substitution process conducted.
3. Three dumb refs put the ball in play following a lengthy substitution process with only nine girls on the floor.
(I was the C and am now hanging my head in shame. )
The inbounding team only has four as one of its players believing she was substituted out of the game went and sat on the bench.
4. The ball is passed in and the team with four immediately scores! (Yeah, that's essentially three on five for those of you counting, since white had one player OOB making the throw-in.)
5. I can now clearly see only 4 players for white on the floor and sound the whistle stopping play. (Question 1: Perhaps I shouldn't have done this, but I reacted to the odd situation of only four on the floor. Maybe the correct procedure is to just continue with this team down a player until a foul/violation occurs or a TO is requested?)
6. The fifth girl for white never moved from the bench the entire time. She never tried to report the table or reenter the floor during the play. She simply sat there unaware of the situation. The coach was not aware of the mistake either.
7. There was no intent to deceive and with the rule change to 10-3-3, I do not believe that this team can be punished with a T. My partner wanted to charge the technical foul, but I talked him out of it as I couldn't come up with any rule that backed assessing one.

Therefore, I want a 10.3.3SitC which is similar to 10.3.3SitB except that the missing player makes no effort to return the game. He/she simply sits on the bench while the team plays with four. What should the officials do?

IMHO they certainly didn't gain any kind of advantage being one player down and it obviously wasn't any kind of an attempt to deceive - just a stupid mistake.

I'd stop play at the first lull in action (which it appears is what you did), tell the coach "Coach, you need one more player out here!", let her report, beckon her in & then resume at the POI.
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Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 09:39am
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Quote:
Originally posted by TimTaylor
5. I can now clearly see only 4 players for white on the floor and sound the whistle stopping play. (Question 1: Perhaps I shouldn't have done this, but I reacted to the odd situation of only four on the floor. Maybe the correct procedure is to just continue with this team down a player until a foul/violation occurs or a TO is requested?)
[/B]
IMHO they certainly didn't gain any kind of advantage being one player down and it obviously wasn't any kind of an attempt to deceive - just a stupid mistake.

I'd stop play at the first lull in action (which it appears is what you did), tell the coach "Coach, you need one more player out here!", let her report, beckon her in & then resume at the POI.
[/B][/QUOTE]That's the only part that I disagree with. If you stop play instead of waiting for a natural whistle, then you're taking an advantage away from the other team. They put the correct number of players on the floor; don't penalize them for doing so. Stopping the play is just bailing out the team that can't count to 5 imo.
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Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 02:17pm
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"Each team consists of five players..."

I agree with Tim and disagree with Jur. The reason? It was an officiating mistake to begin the series with less than 5 players on one team. Hey, mistakes happen, and that's fine. But it isn't necessarily a "legal" advantage for the other team, and you don't "penalize" the other team by making sure all rules are correctly followed. You won't interrupt a layup or shot with a whistle, but you will stop the play as soon as there is the least bit of "lull" in the action and get 5 players on the court for both teams.

We don't, for example, let another player other than the one actually fouled attempt a free throw even if its an innocent mistake by Team A and Team B doesn't notice it. We also tell players to stand still on spot throw ins which in some cases reminds them of the rule and keeps them from violating it. This doesn't give one team or another an advantage -- its doing our jobs on one hand and preventative officiating on the other.
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Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 04:54pm
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But, what if one team wants to inbounds the ball quickly to fast-break, or get the ball in before the other can set up the press?

What if one coach was "asleep" and failed to make a substitution to counter the other teams subs?

There are several reasons why stopping the game could give an advantage or cause a disadvantage to one team or the other.
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Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 06:01pm
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It doesn't matter. This isn't a situation where one of the teams mistakenly shoot at the wrong basket or something similar. Stopping the game in the two situations you mentioned have nothing to do with not complying with the rule that a team is made up of 5 players.

If a team is stalling coming out of a time out and you want to put the ball into play, putting them at an effective disadvantage, that's fine. But that wasn't what the described situation was. Rather, it was where the coach didn't insert a fifth player and the crew allowed it to happen. Besides, I said, "stop the play as soon as there is the least bit of "lull" in the action." That doesn't include, for example, a "fast-break, or get the ball in before the other can set up the press."
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Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 06:25pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
It doesn't matter. This isn't a situation where one of the teams mistakenly shoot at the wrong basket or something similar. Stopping the game in the two situations you mentioned have nothing to do with not complying with the rule that a team is made up of 5 players.

If a team is stalling coming out of a time out and you want to put the ball into play, putting them at an effective disadvantage, that's fine. But that wasn't what the described situation was. Rather, it was where the coach didn't insert a fifth player and the crew allowed it to happen. Besides, I said, "stop the play as soon as there is the least bit of "lull" in the action." That doesn't include, for example, a "fast-break, or get the ball in before the other can set up the press."
Cool.

Cite a rule that let's you stop play then.

You know, in case somebody asks....
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 06:31pm
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FED: 2-3.

Cite something that allows you to play without enforcing 3-1.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 06:46pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
FED: 2-3.

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Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 01:27am
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Good feedback folks, and from the responses given I think that it is apparent why I really would like to see something in print from the NFHS on this.

I'm not a fan of invoking 2-3 for something that has some coverage in the rules.
The problem with saying that the team broke 3-1 is that there is not a penalty provided in the books for doing such.
The NFHS needs to specify the penalty.


[Edited by Nevadaref on Jan 16th, 2006 at 02:57 AM]
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 04:44am
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Nevada, I'm surprised you stopped play. I'm sure you felt like you (and your crew) had made a mistake by starting with 4. I think I agree with your parenthetical comment that you shouldnt have stopped play at all. [edited comment] 10.3.3SitB addresses the failure to report and the running on the court unbeckoned, not the fact that the team was short a player. I think you might have over-thought this one. (Or maybe I have under-thought it , which is probably the case). This is the coach's problem. Wait for a stoppage or a TO. Of course, nothing stops you from saying "you've only got four out there coach" as you jog by. And did I understand you right that your partner was actually going to T the team that only had 4? Maybe I am going to have to think about this one some more...

[edit]

OK, I finally caught up with you. I knew it was me. The problem is 3-1 and the requirement of 5 if available. Yet no penalty is provided. Sorry I am so slow.

[Edited by cdaref on Jan 15th, 2006 at 04:48 AM]
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 03:02am
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I think that you are up to speed and grasp the problematic situation well.

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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 12:14pm
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As I re-read 3-1, it only requires 5 to begin the game. And if there are no replacements available following a DQ or injury it MUST continue with fewer than five until you get down to 1 player. I'm not sure it is illegal to play with four in a non-injury or DQ situation (of course, it doesnt make much sense to do it) per that section. There is no rule "thou shalt have five players on the floor at all times" except to begin the game. Is there? If not, then there is no penalty for it (except as above, a player is DQd or injured and there is a sub aviailable and they refuse to insert the sub then that is probably a forfeit).
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Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 02:57pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by cdaref
I'm not sure it is illegal to play with four in a non-injury or DQ situation (of course, it doesnt make much sense to do it) per that section. There is no rule "thou shalt have five players on the floor at all times" except to begin the game. Is there?
Yup, there sure is. Case book play 3.1.1 says that if you have 5 available, you gotta play those 5. Same with 4...or 3...
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Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 05:26pm
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Can the casebook "add" a rule that is not in the book? Interesting. The casebook can certainly clarify or give examples of the application of rules in the rule book, but can it add a rule that isnt explicitly in the rule book? An interesting question. Maybe that is getting a little to "lawyerly" in my source of rule analysis. But interesting none the less. I'm still going to have to think about this one.

Thanks for bringing this up, Nevada. Maybe I am sick in the head (well, ok, I definately am) but I like examining the rules this closely.
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