Bad Call??

[cdaref]

I just reviewed your initial post. Sounds like the main problem is that you dont actually know anything about the official rules of basketball.

So I guess, as you say, when "He came to me after the game night before last complaining to me about the missed calls and my qualifications to say so" you should have told him that you arent "qualified to say so."

[Edited by cdaref on Jan 14th, 2006 at 05:32 AM]

[Texas Aggie]

Cray: if a parent comes up to me about, well, really any issue, and are respectful, I'm going to listen. Then, I'm going to say, "thanks" and ignore everything they said. I won't, however, say anything threatening about what I'm going to do if the parent keeps complaining. If and when it becomes an issue, I'll deal with it then, but I seriously doubt it will.

If they are abusive, hostile, or rude, I'll either walk away (most likely) or engage them with pointed questions that make it apparent they are an utter fool. As a trial lawyer, I'm pretty good at that.

I'm telling you this to say my reaction to you, whether you might have a point or not, in this situation would be to ignore you. I'm not really interested in the fact that you may have a little bit (or even more) knowledge about the game and the rules. I believe that when I step out on the court to work, I am the most qualified person to be out there. Nobody's perfect, and I'm no exception, but I take critiques from people I know can help me very seriously. I let all other comments, whether they are an attempt at constructive comments or not, go in one ear and out the other. The fact is that I'm being paid to be there, and you (or whoever) had to pay to get in.

If you really believe there's a problem, then you need to drop your "rec ball only" and get out on the court with the rest of us. I don't mean this to sound anything but the matter-of-fact tone I'm thinking in.

[crayon402]

TX A...I did think about taking the test and joining you guys out there, leaving my rec time in the past. I actually had taken a class room training prep for the test covering the basics of the rules and making the call. However, I am so busy with life that I decided not to over extend myself this year. Maybe next year I will take something else out of my life to fit it in. (It sounds like you are too and I commend you for supporting the youth in your area.) I work as a financial advisor FT, volunteer for a not for profit as a Financial Education Teacher, church, baseball / softball official, not to mention mom to 3 and wife that keeps up the household stuff.

Thank ALL of you for your responses. I appreciate each of you taking your time to respond to me.

[just another ref]

Like everyone else here, I have been asked by other fans:
"He really blew that call, didn't he?" When a judgment call is involved, I try to remain at least neutral: "Oh, that might have been a foul, but from his angle, it may have looked totally different, etc." BUT, when the officials totally screw up a rule, and fans know enough to question the call, I don't feel guilty for telling them if they are right. Example: A1 was grabbed from behind by B1 on a layup, and the shot was good. Officials counted the basket and awarded 3 free throws. Explanation: 1 for the foul, and 2 for the intentional. A couple of people sitting near me asked, "How can that be?" I said, "It can't, they made a mistake. It happens." (smile) I do not see this as being critical of other officials, (the public will do that on their own) but as educating fans who were interested enough to ask about the rules. As far as commenting on accusations of "obvious" one-sided calling, even if I agreed, I would never say so.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by just another ref
Like everyone else here, I have been asked by other fans:
"He really blew that call, didn't he?" When a judgment call is involved, I try to remain at least neutral: "Oh, that might have been a foul, but from his angle, it may have looked totally different, etc." BUT, when the officials totally screw up a rule, and fans know enough to question the call, I don't feel guilty for telling them if they are right. Example: A1 was grabbed from behind by B1 on a layup, and the shot was good. Officials counted the basket and awarded 3 free throws. Explanation: 1 for the foul, and 2 for the intentional. A couple of people sitting near me asked, "How can that be?" I said, "It can't, they made a mistake. It happens." (smile) I do not see this as being critical of other officials, (the public will do that on their own) but as educating fans who were interested enough to ask about the rules. As far as commenting on accusations of "obvious" one-sided calling, even if I agreed, I would never say so.

Sorry, JAR, you're not educating fans. You're publically telling them that your fellow officials are incompetent. Those officials are done for the night in that gym as soon as you came out with your remarks- and maybe their next trip into that gym also. There's a helluva difference between education and telling fans that the officials just completely blew a call. What you're doing is just unprofessional as hell imo.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Sorry, JAR, you're not educating fans. You're publically telling them that your fellow officials are incompetent. Those officials are done for the night in that gym as soon as you came out with your remarks- and maybe their next trip into that gym also. There's a helluva difference between education and telling fans that the officials just completely blew a call. What you're doing is just unprofessional as hell imo.

We have had this conversation before, sir, and forgive me but I fail to recall what your answer was as to what I should say. You say that I have branded the officials as incompetent. On this one call, they were incompetent. How do you defend that? One of the people who asked me was a coach and a close friend of mine (go figure that one) who basically already knew the call was wrong, but refers to me as his "rules encyclopedia." What do I say to him, and the others who are interested and listening? I respectfully await your suggestion. How is this any different than when a player steps out of bounds and half the crowd sees it but the officials do not. Everybody knows this is wrong, but it is just one call. Did they not know when they arrived that the officials would miss calls?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by just another ref
[/B]

We have had this conversation before, sir, and forgive me but I fail to recall what your answer was as to what I should say. You say that I have branded the officials as incompetent. On this one call, they were incompetent. How do you defend that?

[/B][/QUOTE]To refresh your memory, my answer is that you should say nothing. If you don't want to defend your incompetent fellow officials, then simply do not comment on your incompetent fellow officials. It is completely unprofessional imo for an official to sit in the stands and openly critique, evaluate or comment on the competency or calls of their fellow officials to fans.

One blown call does not necessarily mean that an official is incompetent. Telling fans about that blown call though certainly brands that official as being incompetent in their eyes. Bye-bye credibility for that official.

Obviously we disagree.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

We have had this conversation before, sir, and forgive me but I fail to recall what your answer was as to what I should say. You say that I have branded the officials as incompetent. On this one call, they were incompetent. How do you defend that?

[/B]

To refresh your memory, my answer is that you should say nothing. If you don't want to defend your incompetent fellow officials, then simply do not comment on your incompetent fellow officials. It is completely unprofessional imo for an official to sit in the stands and openly critique, evaluate or comment on the competency or calls of their fellow officials to fans.

One blown call does not necessarily mean that an official is incompetent. Telling fans about that blown call though certainly brands that official as being incompetent in their eyes. Bye-bye credibility for that official.

Obviously we disagree. [/B][/QUOTE]

Just so I understand: You are watching a game, with a coach/friend sitting a couple of seats away. There is a double foul. Officials administer free throws on both ends and go to the possession arrow. Your friend says, "JR, that's not right is it? Shouldn't they have....etc. ?" You literally say nothing? Somebody else offer an opinion and break the tie, please.

[dblref]

Originally posted by just another ref

To refresh your memory, my answer is that you should say nothing. If you don't want to defend your incompetent fellow officials, then simply do not comment on your incompetent fellow officials. It is completely unprofessional imo for an official to sit in the stands and openly critique, evaluate or comment on the competency or calls of their fellow officials to fans.

One blown call does not necessarily mean that an official is incompetent. Telling fans about that blown call though certainly brands that official as being incompetent in their eyes. Bye-bye credibility for that official.

Obviously we disagree. [/B]

Just so I understand: You are watching a game, with a coach/friend sitting a couple of seats away. There is a double foul. Officials administer free throws on both ends and go to the possession arrow. Your friend says, "JR, that's not right is it? Shouldn't they have....etc. ?" You literally say nothing? Somebody else offer an opinion and break the tie, please.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm with JR on this, so the tie is broken. On several occassions, I have been in this same position where people sitting around me know that I am an official and asks why something was or was not called. Like you, I smile, but I tell them I don't comment either way on another offical's calls. In my opinion, if you comment, it is a no-win situation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by dblref

Just so I understand: You are watching a game, with a coach/friend sitting a couple of seats away. There is a double foul. Officials administer free throws on both ends and go to the possession arrow. Your friend says, "JR, that's not right is it? Shouldn't they have....etc. ?" You literally say nothing? Somebody else offer an opinion and break the tie, please.
[/B]

I'm with JR on this, so the tie is broken. On several occassions, I have been in this same position where people sitting around me know that I am an official and asks why something was or was not called. Like you, I smile, but I tell them I don't comment either way on another offical's calls. In my opinion, if you comment, it is a no-win situation.
[/B][/QUOTE]'Zackly!

[just another ref]

So if the fans question a call which is unfamiliar and the officials are right, you say nothing then either?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by just another ref
So if the fans question a call which is unfamiliar and the officials are right, you say nothing then either?

JAR, that's a heckuva lot different than telling fans that an official just completely blew a call.

We disagree completely on your philosophy. You don't have to justify that philosophy. You certainly have every right to have that philosophy. However, I happen to think your philosophy is unprofessional and completely wrong. That's my right too. You obviously think that I'm wrong also. That's OK too.

Iow, we're just going round'n'round and repeating ourselves now. It's officially become a waste of time. I ain't gonna change your opinion and you ain't gonna change my opinion. Might as well let it go.

[rainmaker]

JAR -- The wording is, "It's her game, and her call. You'll have to ask her." Or, as another person said, "I don't comment on another refs' games. I'm just here as a fan today." Yes, it's the same as saying nothing, but doing it in a polite way.

This isn't the same as supporting a ref when she's right, and the fans are angry. In that case, you're not commenting on the games, you're commenting on the fans, and their ignorance.

If you're being asked to comment on both right and wrong things that the same ref does, you just back out of the situation entirely by saying, "My neighbor is playing in this game, so I'm not really watching the refs." or "I'm working on learning his mechanics, so I didn't see the play" or something vague like that. If worse comes to worse, go sit somewhere else.

I'm telling you these things, because they are things refs did in the stands when I was the one on the floor who was out of line. I felt supported and relaxed and willing to learn and change when my fellow refs were on my side, and not letting me being bumped. The times I've had other refs attacking me or helping others attack, I've been completely devastated. No matter how wrong another ref is, you don't want to contribute to that kind of stuff. You never know when it might be you taking the hits.

If you really want to rag on someone, rag on Billy Packer, or Bill Walton. You can say to the parent, "Is that the interp you heard from Billy Packer on TV? Because that guy doesn't know the top of his head from a bowling ball. You can't trust anything he says about rules. And I'd think coaches wouldn't like him either. So often he'll criticize a play, just as the kid is breaking free for an easy lay-up...." and then walk off. This helps refs in two ways. It deflects criticism from the ref on the floor, and it also gives those fans the idea that Billy Packer may not be the expert that he makes himself out to be. Neither thing is bad.

[just another ref]

according to my wife, I just like to argue. This is true, too, but that is another story. I am saying that you can't have it both ways. Many times the question is about a judgment call. "Oh my gosh!! Did you see that?? That was no travel!!!" Then they turn to me. (or whoever they may deem competent on the subject.....there's a compliment in there somewhere, I think) "Was it?" If I agree with the call, I quickly say so. "Yes, I thought it was a good call." If I disagree, I try to be diplomatic. "Hard to say from here." But, when the question is about a rule and people ask, I find it hard not to answer. People know that I know, or should know, the answer, which is why they asked me in the first place. If I give no answer, are the officials not, in effect, condemned by my silence?

[cdaref]

[nevermind]

[Edited by cdaref on Jan 16th, 2006 at 05:30 PM]