Profanity?

[Dan_ref]

This story can be found at

http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/news/ap/...layersdqd.html


Shout of 'Jesus Christ!' disqualifies player in
state tourney


May 25, 2001

CHATTANOOGA, Tenn. (AP) -- Frustrated high
school tennis players in Tennessee can yell ``Jesus!'' or
``Christ!'' without censure. What they can't do is scream
``Jesus Christ!''

Those two words were shouted by Bearden's Cameron
Boyd after he lost serve in the third set of the Class
AAA championship doubles match -- and he and
partner Brandon Allan were disqualified.

Jan Genosi, the Tennessee Secondary Schools Athletic
Association official at Thursday's match, came onto the
court and awarded the victory to Scott and Andrew
Felsenthal, citing the profanity rule.

Genosi said the state association closely follows U.S.
Tennis Association rules, which permit players to yell
``Jesus'' and ``Christ'' -- just not in the same breath.

``You allow 'Jesus' and you allow 'Christ,' but you
won't allow them together?'' Boyd asked Genosi.
``That's ridiculous.''

State tennis rules call for an automatic default on a first
offense for visible or audible profanity or obscenity or
physical abuse of a player or official.

``I don't have any leeway,'' Genosi said. ``I'm going by
the rule.''

Bearden coach Ann Ham said she had not heard that
phrase included in warnings about forbidden profanity.

Scott Felsenthal would have preferred to win on the
court and thought it should have just drawn a warning.

``But I'm also glad they enforce such strict rules,'' he
said.

[Brian Watson]

Wow, they have officials for tennis?

Here the players still jsut call their own game.


Aside from that, I see both sides of the argument, but I probably would have just given a warning. We don't know the whole situation either, but I am guessing multiple lawyers were consulted.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
Wow, they have officials for tennis?

Here the players still jsut call their own game.

My guess, and you know what happens with assumptions, is that this guy wasn't an actual match official (line judge, chair ump, referee, etc.) but that he was more like the site director.

[112448]

Defaulting a match or forfeiting a game for profanity, on the first offense, creates a dangerous precendent. Especially for a statement that may or may not be viewed as "profanity," depending upon your religious orientation.

Using the tennis example,penalize a point for first offenses, heck, maybe even a game, but to forfeit the match. seems a bit excessive.

any constitutional lawyers out there that can explain the legality of this rule?

jake

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by 112448
any constitutional lawyers out there that can explain the legality of this rule?

Are you kidding?!?! There couldn't possibly be anything about this that is unconstitutional. If the fellow who did the throwing-out is right, and not working on a personal issue, then the rules are the rules and it's up to the players to know them and follow them or risk the consequences.

My personal opinion, is that all these words, plus Allah, Buddha, and a few other religious references (including the word "God!) should be automatic T's, if not ejections. Using these words in frustration or anger shows disrespect and disdain for common and well-known religious beliefs and should come under the definition of "Attitude--disrespect for authority". But then I am an extremist and this is not a battle I'm expecting to win anytime soon!

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by 112448
any constitutional lawyers out there that can explain the legality of this rule?

No legality is required. The First Ammendment states that the CONGRESS (usually interpreted as the government) shall make no law prohibiting the freedom of speech. This is why a newspaper isn't required to print every editorial, etc.

[112448]

any constitutional lawyers out there that can explain the legality of this rule?[/QUOTE]

"No legality is required. The First Ammendment states that the CONGRESS (usually interpreted as the government) shall make no law prohibiting the freedom of speech. This is why a newspaper isn't required to print every editorial, etc."

Mark, thanks for your explaination.


Rainmaker wrote:
"My personal opinion, is that all these words, plus Allah, Buddha, and a few other religious references (including the word "God!) should be automatic T's, if not ejections. Using these words in frustration or anger shows disrespect and disdain for common and well-known religious beliefs and should come under the definition of "Attitude--disrespect for authority". But then I am an extremist and this is not a battle I'm expecting to win anytime soon!"

rainmaker (Juulie i think?)--
I don't disagree that an outburst similar to the ones you have described should be penalized with a technical foul, my point was that FORFEITING a tennis match for that behavior, which is tantamount to forfeiting a basketball team, seems a bit excessive. Can we agree on that? Because that was really my point.

Jake

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by 112448

rainmaker (Juulie i think?)--
I don't disagree that an outburst similar to the ones you have described should be penalized with a technical foul, my point was that FORFEITING a tennis match for that behavior, which is tantamount to forfeiting a basketball team, seems a bit excessive. Can we agree on that? Because that was really my point.

Jake

You're missing the point. It wasn't a forfeit, it was an ejection. Since you can't play doubles with one person, a forfeit is the result. The official had no choice is the TSSAA strictly abides by a profanity rule and "Jesus Christ" is included in that rule.

In NC, profanity by a participant is an autoimatic ejection. If it's a basketball player, then the coach just sends a sub in. But in tennis, the match would be forfeited.

That's the rule.

[JRutledge]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

You're missing the point. It wasn't a forfeit, it was an ejection. Since you can't play doubles with one person, a forfeit is the result. The official had no choice is the TSSAA strictly abides by a profanity rule and "Jesus Christ" is included in that rule.

In NC, profanity by a participant is an autoimatic ejection. If it's a basketball player, then the coach just sends a sub in. But in tennis, the match would be forfeited.

That's the rule.

But a T or an ejection for "Jesus Christ?" I think we need to give more leeway than that. All of us are not Christians and would not find that offensive in anyway. If I was a Muslim, I might not even realize the significance of the usage of that world. I agree that we need to do something about profanity, but just saying the Lord's name in vain, might have some significance if you do not feel that Jesus is your Lord.

Peace

[Gary Brendemuehl]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

But a T or an ejection for "Jesus Christ?" I think we need to give more leeway than that. All of us are not Christians and would not find that offensive in anyway. If I was a Muslim, I might not even realize the significance of the usage of that world. I agree that we need to do something about profanity, but just saying the Lord's name in vain, might have some significance if you do not feel that Jesus is your Lord.

Peace

But some of us are Christians and some of us do find it offensive. Simply saying, well they may not find it offensive doesn't excuse it.

[Brian Watson]

This is one of those things that no one will agree on. What is offensive to me is not to the person next to me and so on. I don't think a zero tolerance is the way to go, but there is a lot of grey area on the topic. This kid probably did the same thing many times during the year and no one ever penalized it.

But, that is a soapbox for a different time.

[BktBallRef]

I'm not questioning whether the TSSAA policy is correct, moral, or appropriate. I really don't care what their policies are are. All I'm saying is that the official was correct in his action is this is what happened.

Rut, in past posts, you've indicated that the IHSAA allows players and coacheds to use profanity. That's fine, if that's what they want to do. You also know that in my state, that is not allowed. That doesn't make either association right or wrong. We must simply uphold the rules and policies of the association that we work under. It would appaer that Jan Genosi did just that.

[rainmaker]

I agree with 12248 that it's excessive. But if it was already in the rules that way, the kid doesn't have a let to stand on legally.

I disagree with Rut that if I'm not a Christian, saying the Lord's name as an expression of anger isn't offensive to me. I am Caucasian, but I am offended if anyone uses the N word, not because I am Amrican-American, but because of what it shows about the person who said it.

Also, note that many missionaries have observed that the words, "Jesus Christ" aren't used as profanity until the concepts and ideas and stories of Christianity are introduced. It isn't just a random word, like "Oshibibble" or something. It has meaning, and the people that use it as profanity use it with meaning. The disrespect that is reflected is what I find offensive.

[AK ref SE]

Religion and Politics nobody will ever agree!!!! Rainmaker makes a good point. When somebody uses "Jesus Christ" in anger or frustration, they are saying it in a negative way.
The meaning of the word is penalized whether you think it is profanity or not. Players and coaches are "T" up in basketball for other things besides Profanity it is how they say certain things or after a warning. Whether I am Christian or not, whatever my origin, race, or gender is does not matter. Young or old! You still have to be aware of your surroundings and watch what you say. There are many things that will offend someone or some group of people.

AK ref SE

[bluezebra]

What else would you expect from a "Bible Belt" state? Another case of religious (read Christian) fanatics forcing their beliefs on the rest of us.

bob