Hey tomegun...

[RookieDude]

Was watching a little of the UNC vs. VT basketball game, on ESPN last night, before I had to leave for my game.

Mike Patrick (ESPN Sunday Night Football) was the T.V. commentator.

Player A1 was dribbling right in front of the T, with player B1 guarding. A1 made a move to the basket, on the T's side of the semi-circle. A1 pushed B1 with his off hand. B1 went to the floor. The T had no call.
The C came in with a player control foul.

Mike Patrick said something like, "That's a foul, you gotta get that."
I've seen these plays with no call, maybe because A1 pushed and then backed away from the basket. The disadvantage was created when A1 pushed off...but then negated when he backed off from the push. (The C might have thought A1 created space...therefore could get a uncontested shot off...the T might have thought differently)

In light of a recent discussion here...I was just wondering if tomegun, or any official for that matter, would approve of C's call?

I'll Edit here for the time and score in the game:
There was just over 3 minutes left in a one point game.

[Edited by RookieDude on Jan 11th, 2006 at 10:10 AM]

[ChuckElias]

Wow. That's a tough one, especially in that game sitch. The likelihood is that as the C, I'm probably not even looking at it, unless there is no screening or post play on my side of the court. It's on the far side of the FT circle.

I can't give a definitive answer on this one. If it's an obvious foul and the T was straight-lined and there's nothing going on in my primary. . .

Maybe. That's the best answer I can give.

[tomegun]

I'm blushing. Thank you for thinking of me.

First of all, I would have to see this call like Chuck said.
Second, the crew on this game was strong = they can do things we can't in a game because they who they are.

Picturing this play in my head, the distance the C went outside his area is roughly have the width of the paint. The other situation was about 10 times that far.

What did the T do when the drive started? He has very little time to step left or right. The T could have stepped to the right and the push off was with the left hand.

If the T didn't move correctly he could have been stacked and either not seen the push or not seen how much it effected the defender.

Can you tell us where the other 8 players were located and what the C's matchups were? Was the C's whistle slightly delayed?

I think this play is 1/10 the distance of the other call, which makes a big difference. I think this situation would be similar to what would have happened if the T had made the call in the other thread.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by RookieDude
Player A1 was dribbling right in front of the T, with player B1 guarding. A1 made a move to the basket, on the T's side of the semi-circle. A1 pushed B1 with his off hand. B1 went to the floor. The T had no call.
The C came in with a player control foul.

Mike Patrick said something like, "That's a foul, you gotta get that."
I've seen these plays with no call, maybe because A1 pushed and then backed away from the basket. The disadvantage was created when A1 pushed off...but then negated when he backed off from the push. (The C might have thought A1 created space...therefore could get a uncontested shot off...the T might have thought differently)

Could T have thought it was a flop?

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Could T have thought it was a flop?

No...I don't think so rainmaker...see below.

Originally posted by ChuckElias
If it's an obvious foul and the T was straight-lined

Originally posted by tomegun
If the T didn't move correctly he could have been stacked and either not seen the push or not seen how much it effected the defender.

Yep...you both hit it on the head...that's exactly what happened, from what I could see. The T got straight-lined and, in fact, froze for a split second. He even bent at the knees to try and get an angle...but was to late.

Originally posted by tomegun
Was the C's whistle slightly delayed?

Yes

Originally posted by tomegun
Can you tell us where the other 8 players were located and what the C's matchups were?

The other 8 players were basically in and around the key below the FT line. If I can picture it correctly, there were 4 players on C's side...with the post and other players on the strong side.

Originally posted by tomegun
[/B]the distance the C went outside his area is roughly have the width of the paint.[/B]

Yehbut...the C WAS outside his area.
I think you softened on your hard lined stance of staying in your area toward the end of the last thread. Maybe you were just trying to make a point to the newer officials about staying the heck out of your partner's area and trusting said partners.
I think we can all agree your philosophy/mechanics are sound...BUT, IMO, there are exceptions.

Here was one example.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by tomegun
I
Picturing this play in my head, the distance the C went outside his area is roughly have the width of the paint. The other situation was about 10 times that far.

...

I think this play is 1/10 the distance of the other call, which makes a big difference. I think this situation would be similar to what would have happened if the T had made the call in the other thread.

A little exaggeration sure makes a point more believable.

The paint is 12 feet wide. If the other situation had the ref calling it from 10 times that far, he have to be making a baseline call from the 10th row of the bleachers on the other end of the court!!!

That said, it is different and much more acceptable.



[Edited by Camron Rust on Jan 11th, 2006 at 11:43 PM]

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tomegun

First of all, I would have to see this call like Chuck said.
Second, the crew on this game was strong = they can do things we can't in a game because they who they are.

Yep, you're right, 3 Final Four officials to be exact.

Since I ran into TOMEGUN and his crew this weekend I was going to start a thread about calling across the paint as the lead. Then I said "wait, we can search the forum now for similar threads" and look what I found.

Don't have time to complete my thoughts right now, I'll re-engage when I get home.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Yep, you're right, 3 Final Four officials to be exact.

Since I ran into TOMEGUN and his crew this weekend I was going to start a thread about calling across the paint as the lead. Then I said "wait, we can search the forum now for similar threads" and look what I found.

Don't have time to complete my thoughts right now, I'll re-engage when I get home.

It would have been interesting to hear the conversation between the two of them after the game. I wonder if the C said, "hey, sorry about that call in your area. I temporarily got caught ball-watching." Nobody is perfect. If they were all final four refs, I don't think that the T needed the C's help.

If there were matchups in the C's area, he shouldn't have been watching the T's area.

Nobody is perfect. Without seeing the play, it sounds like the C reached.

Z

[tomegun]

I will engage a little where BNR left. We went to Outback after our games on Saturday. One of my friends picked up the tab because of a bet we made: the first one to call across the paint buys dinner.
The play that got him was on the baseline. It started in the corner and I was the C. The player got grabbed (slightly), played through it and was on his way to the hoop. "Tweet" I'm looking around like, "What the..." He kept saying he was on the move - to rotate - and wasn't going to pay. Thanks to Hoopstv.com we looked at the play up in the stands between games. He is about 6'3" and made the call less than half of one of his steps into the paint.
He finally admitted he was wrong and paid.

"You ain't getting none of my check so you might as well let me work!"

Disclaimer: This is one of my friends so this "confrontation" was all in fun.

[Raymond]

OK, back to what I wanted to discuss.

Though no one said anything about it, I made a call from the lead across the paint in one of my games this weekend (3-man). The ball had swung from the strong side to weak side slightly below free throw line extended. I immediately closed down. Before I had a chance to go ahead and rotate, A1 started penetrating to his right towards the baseline and the basket. The defender B1 has his chest against A1's left shoulder and arm with no space in between and was ever so slightly trailing A1. He then puts his left hand into A1's midsection causing A1 to slow down and forcing him to loop more towards the sideline. I didn't think there was anyway for the C to see the hand-check based on his angle behind the players.

I think I know Tomegun's answer but what do others think?

A. Go ahead and rotate even though A1 was already penetrating to the basket and then come with the whistle.

B. Pass on the foul and let the play continue on to the basket.

C. Call the hand-check even though I was calling from across the paint.

BTW, I didn't start this thread so I can't start a poll...but I'm really not looking for A/B/C answers, rather I'm looking for the reasoning behind why you would do what you would do.

And oh yeah, the UNC-VA Tech game in question was officiated by Tony Greene, Ed Corbett, and Ted Valentine (or was it Ed Hightower?, I get them confused )

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

A. Go ahead and rotate even though A1 was already penetrating to the basket and then come with the whistle.

B. Pass on the foul and let the play continue on to the basket.

C. Call the hand-check even though I was calling from across the paint.

A good habit to get into is to back out to wide-angle when a drive starts out of the C's primary. The logic behind it is two-fold.
1) It gets you farther away from the play so you are less likely to poach a call across the key.
2) It gives a non-verbal reminder to the C that the play is theirs to take.

You don't have to pass on a significant foul, but you should have a delayed whistle and give the C the first crack at the play. If you do decide to go over to the C's side with a whistle, it should be something significant and not something that the C might have chose to let go.

IMO (as you described it), the C should have decided if it was handcheck or not and your call might have been a little bit of a poach.

This is a good conversation to have after the game? "Hey C, did you think I reached on that one or were you straightlined?" Hopefully you'll have a partner that is comfortable enough with you to be honest in their reply.

Z

[tomegun]

BNR, this sounds like one of those plays where the C physically can't see the contact and the L might have to help. I would say let the play develop and decide if you want to have a patient whistle. Also, the L must think about the players he/she is looking past and if he/she would be better served to accelerate if they aren't going to officiate the players in their primary.

Zebraman's comments really matter on these plays. So many times the C has the call whether they call it or pass on it. If there is a double whistle on the C's side of the paint - IMO - it should either be a non-basketball play or it is a play the L should have let the C call. This is where a patient whistle comes in.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by zebraman

This is a good conversation to have after the game? "Hey C, did you think I reached on that one or were you straightlined?" Hopefully you'll have a partner that is comfortable enough with you to be honest in their reply.
Z

I'm gonna shoot him an email right now. By the time game was over the play had slipped my mine. He'll be honest with me.

Originally Posted by zebraman

A good habit to get into is to back out to wide-angle when a drive starts out of the C's primary. The logic behind it is two-fold.
1) It gets you farther away from the play so you are less likely to poach a call across the key.
2) It gives a non-verbal reminder to the C that the play is theirs to take.

You're the first person I've had tell me this. I had never thought about backing out of my close down in this situation. I've asked this question before of evaluators (in camp and in JuCo games) but no one ever really gave me a solid answer. I should have the opportunity to work a few more 3-man games this month so I'll try it out next time I get caught in that predicament.

[IREFU2]

For Tomegun and Badnews Ref -

It was a great call and I was definately straightlined and Badnews helped out. Also, from my closed down angle, I couldnt see much of any contact. So I was glad the lead made the call. Great job Badnews!!!

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

For Tomegun and Badnews Ref -

It was a great call and I was definately straightlined and Badnews helped out. Also, from my closed down angle, I couldnt see much of any contact. So I was glad the lead made the call. Great job Badnews!!!

It sounds like you should have taken a step up so the play would have opened up for you. Although players are fast, "closed down angle" and the C position shouldn't go together.

At the time of the call, was your position below the free-throw line extended or above it? Also, was your position on the sideline or a few steps onto the court? This play sounds like a drive to the right by the offensive player should result in a step to the left and onto the court for the C. There could always be other factors that could prevent this from being effective.