How far will you go to save a game (PART 2)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by tomegun
What would you rather have: someone who gives accurate information bluntly, or a nice, rosy delivery of total BS?

Well, I would say that it depends of who is doing the assessment of what the "accurate information" is and who is deciding who is just dispensing "total BS". Just because someone disagrees with you, Tom, doesn't automatically make them wrong. Your "accurate information" could be "total BS" to me. Or other people. And vice-versa naturally.

[ChuckElias]

Tom,

This may seem out of the blue, but there's no sense in holding back. . . would you marry me?

[tomegun]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Tom,

This may seem out of the blue, but there's no sense in holding back. . . would you marry me?

Dang it! Now that caused an audible giggle!

[zebraman]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Tom,

This may seem out of the blue, but there's no sense in holding back. . . would you marry me?

LOL, good one Chuck!

How sweet, the first marriage proposal on this board.

I want to get a gift for the happy couple. Where are you two registered?

Z

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by zebraman

I want to get a gift for the happy couple. Where are you two registered?

Honig's?

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally posted by RookieDude
T and C experienced Officials.

Are yo usaying the L was not experienced?

Originally posted by RookieDude
C, with good speed,

Good speed by what standards, or are you just patting yourself on the back ?

And just how did this "correction" SAVE the game?

[tomegun]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, I would say that it depends of who is doing the assessment of what the "accurate information" is and who is deciding who is just dispensing "total BS". Just because someone disagrees with you, Tom, doesn't automatically make them wrong. Your "accurate information" could be "total BS" to me. Or other people. And vice-versa naturally.

Could you tell me what you are talking about since I wasn't even referring to myself?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman

First of all, I couldn't give a rats patootie about what happens in your social reffing life outside of here. I don't work games in your area. I only deal with you on this board. So how well you get along with all your cronies is completely irrelevant to anyone who is here regularly. The experiences you have there have the potential to be helpful here, but they aren't because you go off on these long rambles that nobody understands and you turn a lot of posts into pissing contests. As much as you blow yourself on here, you must be pretty insecure about your ability.

My job is not to make people happy with what I say. I tell people all the time if you do not like what I have to say (or anyone else has to say) to ignore the information or person. I cannot turn any conversation into anything. People here cannot take the fact that someone on this earth does not share their since of reality. I will debate my point of view because I can and it is not like you or anyone else can stop me. I know I have no power over what other people say here. Remember, you said that no one pays attention to me here, but ever time I turn around you keep commenting on what I say. I did not address my comments about this topic to you, but you went out of your way to make a point to say "I never agree with Rut but....." You could have kept that statement. I do not care and I am sure a lot of other people could give a damn if you agreed with my point of view.

Originally posted by zebraman
Second of all, I don't own a pair of belted pants. I haven't since about my third year of officiating. However, I think it's REALLY ignorant to look at any official and draw any conclusions about their ability based on whether or not they wear belted pants. As long as they look neat and clean, it's irrelevant. One of the officials that worked a 4A boys semi-final here in Washington (and worked the girls 3A state final the year prior) wears belted pants. He also does college ball. Oh my goodness.

Z

Z, I am talking in generalities and things specific to what I have experienced. There are always exceptions to any statement. If I said that Black people do not like George Bush there are obviously exceptions to that statement. There is also proof that what I said was mostly true also (voting records, polls, approval ratings, party affiliation). Of course you can find one guy that does not fit what I said. I can tell you if you are wearing belted pants where I live at the college level; you will not be there very long. I am not just speaking for the state of Illinois either. The college assignors I work for assign officials that live in multiple states. There are always exceptions to any statement. Stop taking it so personal. I just made the statement in the first place to push your buttons and I accomplished what I wanted to. I take great humor in the fact that you are so upset over what I say and we live thousands of miles away from each other. I also am not impressed with some guy that lives in a state so far away from this region of the country. Basketball is king here and a lot of what goes on here sets the standards for the rest of the country (not my words, ask those that run other states). So I am sure you would find people that do not fit what I said.

Peace

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Alfreedog
The T and C were wrong dead wrong, caving into the pressure of the crowd.

That's where you are dead wrong dog...there is no way the changed call was made because of the crowd...that's almost laughable.
We may have been dead wrong...but, it wasn't because of the crowd.

Remember T and C never had the call, never raised their fist for a foul, never blow their whistle.

Remember...the L initially raised his fist for the obvious foul...why would the T or C double whistle it?

Listen, again I agree with the bigdogs here on their philosophical approach to this type of sitch. That's why I posted this mess...I wasn't proud of big-timing the less experienced official. (The guy isn't young, but his career has been mostly JV stuff, with a little V sprinkled here and there)
Would we have come in and huddled with a more experienced V official? Probably not...in fact, if I had been the misguided L and my two partners came up to me after the "call"...I wouldn't have been apologizing in the locker room, I would have been somewhat unpleasant.

So...we treated our partner differently than we would have a seasoned veteran. I wouldn't have felt the need to protect and/or embarass the Vet. We did this particular partner...therefore, our bad.

Sure, we got the call right...but, at what expense to a partner?
As a crew, do we get every call right every night? (I haven't seen it yet)
Do we go around huddling and changing things for the "good of the game"? (Sometimes...you just have to know when those "sometimes" are)

These are some of the philosophical questions that, IMO, a good official asks him/herself.

BTW...Coach B, of the fouling team asked me how my partner could change that call? I simply asked him if he thought it was a foul. He said it didn't matter...I looked him in the eyes and asked him again, if he thought it was a foul. He turned and went back to his seat.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by RookieDude
Listen, again I agree with the bigdogs here on their philosophical approach to this type of sitch. That's why I posted this mess...I wasn't proud of big-timing the less experienced official. (The guy isn't young, but his career has been mostly JV stuff, with a little V sprinkled here and there)
Would we have come in and huddled with a more experienced V official? Probably not...in fact, if I had been the misguided L and my two partners came up to me after the "call"...I wouldn't have been apologizing in the locker room, I would have been somewhat unpleasant.

So...we treated our partner differently than we would have a seasoned veteran. I wouldn't have felt the need to protect and/or embarass the Vet. We did this particular partner...therefore, our bad.

Sure, we got the call right...but, at what expense to a partner?
As a crew, do we get every call right every night? (I haven't seen it yet)
Do we go around huddling and changing things for the "good of the game"? (Sometimes...you just have to know when those "sometimes" are)

These are some of the philosophical questions that, IMO, a good official asks him/herself.

When I work with an official at the varsity or college level, I assume they can do the job. I do not under any circumstances treat them any different than someone else. The only way I would do that if I feel they are really struggling, but I just let them call their game. There is a reason they are assigned to the game, it is not my job or my obligation to "save them." Even if I am the vet of the crew, I think it will hinder a younger official if I take control. If they screw up they will not be at that level very much longer. Not saying you did that, I just believe in teamwork and working together.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally posted by tomegun
Rich, I think your situation was different for many reasons. The fact that you began a rotation and knew what you had done goes a long way. In the half-court, the L must protect the T and C's front (basket) side and they must protect the L's back side. I also took note that you looked where you were going in the rotation. It was also probably a reason for the rotation. That is why I'm not totally opposed to an accelerated rotation. We have a reason for rotating and many times we look at it. Why not get over there as quick as possible? The faster we get over there, the sooner the new C will focus one their primary. If we go slower, the soon-to-be C might not pick up the new primary and the L is looking where they are going.

Although it still isn't technically correct, I think the (your) outlook is very good. Trust me when I tell you, I have been in just about every screwed up situation possible.

I was only in the first step of the rotation, but we actually do rotate quicker than most I've seen in high school. I'm going there -- I may as well get there.

I started the rotation because the ball got passed into the corner with a player posting up. Instead of passing into the post, the player took two dribbles baseline and put up a jumpshot and got nailed.

My partners didn't think it was as big a deal as I did.

Well, I'm working 3 tonight and tomorrow, so lots more practice. Tonight is the first girls game I've ever worked 3-person.

--Rich

[refTN]

Originally posted by RookieDude

That's where you are dead wrong dog...there is no way the changed call was made because of the crowd...that's almost laughable.
We may have been dead wrong...but, it wasn't because of the crowd.

Remember T and C never had the call, never raised their fist for a foul, never blow their whistle.

Remember...the L initially raised his fist for the obvious foul...why would the T or C double whistle it?

Listen, again I agree with the bigdogs here on their philosophical approach to this type of sitch. That's why I posted this mess...I wasn't proud of big-timing the less experienced official. (The guy isn't young, but his career has been mostly JV stuff, with a little V sprinkled here and there)
Would we have come in and huddled with a more experienced V official? Probably not...in fact, if I had been the misguided L and my two partners came up to me after the "call"...I wouldn't have been apologizing in the locker room, I would have been somewhat unpleasant.

So...we treated our partner differently than we would have a seasoned veteran. I wouldn't have felt the need to protect and/or embarass the Vet. We did this particular partner...therefore, our bad.

Sure, we got the call right...but, at what expense to a partner?
As a crew, do we get every call right every night? (I haven't seen it yet)
Do we go around huddling and changing things for the "good of the game"? (Sometimes...you just have to know when those "sometimes" are)

These are some of the philosophical questions that, IMO, a good official asks him/herself.

BTW...Coach B, of the fouling team asked me how my partner could change that call? I simply asked him if he thought it was a foul. He said it didn't matter...I looked him in the eyes and asked him again, if he thought it was a foul. He turned and went back to his seat.

Rookie Dude, Why not have a secondary whistle in cadence here? It seems in this situation it would have been great to have a double whistle here. It would have given the crew better credibility, more believability that the foul was actually there, and I also think this L official doesn't drop his foul call. If you can ever help a less "experienced" official by giving him a back-up whistle especially in a late game with a tough call then Please give it.

[SMEngmann]

Originally posted by tomegun
SME,

Please don't think you can slip that one past us! Charlie Range did something that changed the game of basketball (college at least) but that is not the same thing as watching the ball. He used the monitor before it was accepted. I have been to his camp and I know for sure he would not advocate 3 sets of eyes on the ball and doing what many believe is good officiating on this board. Don't connect the two; they aren't the same.

Just because you include a sentence saying you aren't doing it doesn't mean you aren't advocating ball-watching. You are! A long, long time ago I had a similar situation happen during a game (a military tournament). I saw a play from the start and made my call. My "partner" came to me and said he had a foul on the other player, even though he didn't have a whistle. I looked at him, in amazement, and told him to go report it. This guy had the nerve to go to the table and report a foul that he never had!

When I'm not being cynical, I have had many situations that haven't turned out right. That is why I know the best thing to do is have a comfortable crew and let other officials call their game. If I was the coach of the other team on these plays we have been talking about lately, I would throw a fit, and rightfully so. You cannot throw good mechanics out the window. Doing so gives younger officials a license to do this the whole game. It isn't good for us to say this all the time on the board. There are exceptions; saying getting it right is the most important thing is not the right thing to say every time someone is ball watching!

As RefTN said there are occasions where having a double whistle, or even a triple whistle on rare occasions is a good thing. Our primary goals on the floor are to manage the game and to call the obvious, and those goals often go hand in hand. In my opinion, the design of the 3 person system is to put officials in the right places to call obvious fouls. Coverage areas converge, particularly if there are no competitive matchups, and often the slot or the trail has a better look at a certain play than the lead. When I say I don't advocate ball-watching, I agree with Rut that officials should referee their first competitive matchup and stay within the system, but there are also occasions when other officials simply have a better look.

In this particular situation, as described, we have an OBVIOUS foul at a critical time in the game that the L clearly kicked/talked himself out of. The other officials both had a clear foul and came in late and took it. As described, we're talking about a train wreck type play, and those are game changing plays if nothing is called. Are there times when this can't get called? Sure, if both other officials are occupied in their areas with competitive matchups, but in this case, both clearly saw an obvious foul, and were certain enough of the foul to come in and make the call. I don't see how any official, in good conscious, at the varsity right area or not, can see an obvious foul, with no doubt, at a critical point in the game and swallow the whistle because, "That was his call." Get the play right.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by SMEngmann

As RefTN said there are occasions where having a double whistle, or even a triple whistle on rare occasions is a good thing. Our primary goals on the floor are to manage the game and to call the obvious, and those goals often go hand in hand. In my opinion, the design of the 3 person system is to put officials in the right places to call obvious fouls. Coverage areas converge, particularly if there are no competitive matchups, and often the slot or the trail has a better look at a certain play than the lead. When I say I don't advocate ball-watching, I agree with Rut that officials should referee their first competitive matchup and stay within the system, but there are also occasions when other officials simply have a better look.

In this particular situation, as described, we have an OBVIOUS foul at a critical time in the game that the L clearly kicked/talked himself out of. The other officials both had a clear foul and came in late and took it. As described, we're talking about a train wreck type play, and those are game changing plays if nothing is called. Are there times when this can't get called? Sure, if both other officials are occupied in their areas with competitive matchups, but in this case, both clearly saw an obvious foul, and were certain enough of the foul to come in and make the call. I don't see how any official, in good conscious, at the varsity right area or not, can see an obvious foul, with no doubt, at a critical point in the game and swallow the whistle because, "That was his call." Get the play right.

I don't really know why you quoted me, but this play and the result is BS. Since you quoted me, I'm assuming your post was to explain the art of 3-person to me. Next time give me all your information before I leave on a Friday to do a varsity boys and D2 men's game. I'm sure I could have used this before!

All this "blah, blah, blah" is basically "this is why I watch the ball." In YOUR conscious, you live with watching the ball. I have never, EVER had an evaluator tell me "why didn't you call that call in your partner's area?" They will ask why you are calling out of your area in a heartbeat. The vast majority of the time, I'm looking in MY primary because I don't ref in this wonderful land of OZ that doesn't have anything off-ball for me to look at.

[ronny mulkey]

Tomegun,

I am curious - how many offball calls do you make a game? I'm not just curious because it is you or this post. I am just curious as to the number of offball calls made by all officials per game.

Doesn't the NBA or somebody track these kinds of numbers? I have heard that it is a very low number. If the number is low and it is not because of mechanics that the NBA is already stressing, then you might look for mechanics to change in the future about offball calls. That might lead to a less restrictive philosophy on going to help on calls made on the ball. I betcha the numbers made, and missed, of calls on the ball far outweigh all other calls.

It just seems to me that the NBA is a forward thinking trend setter when it comes to training their officials. They are years ahead of college and high school, but a lot of their research ends up trickling down to the high school level.

Just my opinion.

Mulk