How far will you go to save a game (PART 2)

[zebraman]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
Tomegun,

I am curious - how many offball calls do you make a game? I'm not just curious because it is you or this post. I am just curious as to the number of offball calls made by all officials per game.

Doesn't the NBA or somebody track these kinds of numbers? I have heard that it is a very low number. If the number is low and it is not because of mechanics that the NBA is already stressing, then you might look for mechanics to change in the future about offball calls. That might lead to a less restrictive philosophy on going to help on calls made on the ball. I betcha the numbers made, and missed, of calls on the ball far outweigh all other calls.

It just seems to me that the NBA is a forward thinking trend setter when it comes to training their officials. They are years ahead of college and high school, but a lot of their research ends up trickling down to the high school level.

Just my opinion.

Mulk

Are you serious? You think that because there aren't as many offball calls as onball calls that the philosophy might change to let officials start calling anywhere on the court. Please! Offball fouls are the ones that lead to fights. They are the ones that lead to rough play that is always a POE.

The whole point of 3-person is for officials to call in THEIR area and see the whole play. If we're just going to have all officials watching all over the court and call on-ball, we can just go back to 2 officials. Tomegun is right, some of this justification for "getting the play right" is starting to get absurd and sound like an excuse for being a ball watcher.

Z

[SMEngmann]

Originally posted by tomegun

I don't really know why you quoted me, but this play and the result is BS. Since you quoted me, I'm assuming your post was to explain the art of 3-person to me. Next time give me all your information before I leave on a Friday to do a varsity boys and D2 men's game. I'm sure I could have used this before!

All this "blah, blah, blah" is basically "this is why I watch the ball." In YOUR conscious, you live with watching the ball. I have never, EVER had an evaluator tell me "why didn't you call that call in your partner's area?" They will ask why you are calling out of your area in a heartbeat. The vast majority of the time, I'm looking in MY primary because I don't ref in this wonderful land of OZ that doesn't have anything off-ball for me to look at.

Tommy I am not trying to explain 3 person mechanics to you or patronize you in any way. In fact, I agree with basically all you say and I generally agree with you on reading this board. I can't picture an evaluator saying "Why didn't you call that in your partner's area," but evaluators will say to a crew, "Why wasn't there a whistle on that play." I'm not at all advocating not refereeing your primary and always watching the ball, but rather making calls of assist when there is nothing happening in your primary and you are 100% certain, especially if it's potentially game changing. The way I read your post, which could be wrong, is that your opinion is that even if you've got no matchups in your primary and you see your partner miss an obvious foul that you should pass on it because "it's not in my area." I disagree with that philosophy, that's why I quoted you.

[Rich]

Originally posted by SMEngmann

Tommy I am not trying to explain 3 person mechanics to you or patronize you in any way. In fact, I agree with basically all you say and I generally agree with you on reading this board. I can't picture an evaluator saying "Why didn't you call that in your partner's area," but evaluators will say to a crew, "Why wasn't there a whistle on that play." I'm not at all advocating not refereeing your primary and always watching the ball, but rather making calls of assist when there is nothing happening in your primary and you are 100% certain, especially if it's potentially game changing. The way I read your post, which could be wrong, is that your opinion is that even if you've got no matchups in your primary and you see your partner miss an obvious foul that you should pass on it because "it's not in my area." I disagree with that philosophy, that's why I quoted you.

The evaluator will ask the official, not the crew.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
Tomegun,

I am curious - how many offball calls do you make a game? I'm not just curious because it is you or this post. I am just curious as to the number of offball calls made by all officials per game.

Doesn't the NBA or somebody track these kinds of numbers? I have heard that it is a very low number. If the number is low and it is not because of mechanics that the NBA is already stressing, then you might look for mechanics to change in the future about offball calls. That might lead to a less restrictive philosophy on going to help on calls made on the ball. I betcha the numbers made, and missed, of calls on the ball far outweigh all other calls.

It just seems to me that the NBA is a forward thinking trend setter when it comes to training their officials. They are years ahead of college and high school, but a lot of their research ends up trickling down to the high school level.

Just my opinion.

Mulk

Like the traveling rule, this is a difference that should be noted about the NBA. They don't call off-ball as much as college and high school. This, IMO, is where entertainment comes in; people don't want to pay big money to have people commit a bunch of off-ball calls. I have been told, at a camp, that this is one reason why the primary areas of coverage can be different in the NBA; it doesn't matter if they are looking out at the 3-point line because if someone is banging in the post it more than likely will NOT be called.

The number of off-ball calls I call during a game is dependant on the players, BUT the best way to be accurate is to watch my primary so I will not call the second foul.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
The way I read your post, which could be wrong, is that your opinion is that even if you've got no matchups in your primary and you see your partner miss an obvious foul that you should pass on it because "it's not in my area." I disagree with that philosophy, that's why I quoted you.

For the most part you are right. I will go anywhere on the court for a non-basketball play. If I have nobody in my primary I will go to the next competitive matchup which many people seem to think is automatically where the ball is. That smells of ball-watching to me. How convenient is it to have all the players in a position where there is nobody in a primary AND the next competitive match-up is on-ball?

We really haven't heard - in neither one of these threads - if the whistle was delayed a beat, which it should be most of the time when making a call in your (all officials') primary.

To each his/her own, but after asking several people, picturing possible situations in my head and thinking about it while I'm on the court (before the games), this line of thinking just isn't for me. I've never been taught to do this and it isn't something I instinctively do. I wouldn't want someone to do it in a game I'm working.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally posted by zebraman

Are you serious? You think that because there aren't as many offball calls as onball calls that the philosophy might change to let officials start calling anywhere on the court. Please! Offball fouls are the ones that lead to fights. They are the ones that lead to rough play that is always a POE.

The whole point of 3-person is for officials to call in THEIR area and see the whole play. If we're just going to have all officials watching all over the court and call on-ball, we can just go back to 2 officials. Tomegun is right, some of this justification for "getting the play right" is starting to get absurd and sound like an excuse for being a ball watcher.

Z

Z,

Yes, I am serious. Why are you so adamant that you are right about helping in these situations? Is it because someone at camp told you you shouldn't make a call from lead out past the f. throw line? Or, is it that you truly believe you can't get a call right from there? Or, is it just the mechanics that you have been taught as of this date? Do you believe in double whistles? Triple whistles?I'm not saying that that the philosophy might CHANGE to let officials call over the floor - I'm saying that it is already in place. I'm also saying that mechanics and philosophies DO change ALL THE TIME. When they change, will your opinion change?

You never answered the question - how many offball calls per game do you make on the average? BTW, I happen to agree with you on this situation and it is because that is the way that I have been taught - today.

Mulk

[Rich]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey

Z,

Yes, I am serious. Why are you so adamant that you are right about helping in these situations? Is it because someone at camp told you you shouldn't make a call from lead out past the f. throw line? Or, is it that you truly believe you can't get a call right from there? Or, is it just the mechanics that you have been taught as of this date? Do you believe in double whistles? Triple whistles?I'm not saying that that the philosophy might CHANGE to let officials call over the floor - I'm saying that it is already in place. I'm also saying that mechanics and philosophies DO change ALL THE TIME. When they change, will your opinion change?

You never answered the question - how many offball calls per game do you make on the average? BTW, I happen to agree with you on this situation and it is because that is the way that I have been taught - today.

Mulk

Having started in this sport almost 20 years ago, I have seen LOTS of things change. The one I laugh the most about is how we used to cross over the floor during a live ball to "get in the Cadillac" position. Can't believe we EVER did that. Now we only do that when the T and C miss a rotation....

One thing I don't think will EVER change -- we will always stress working in a primary of some kind. Will those areas change? Quite possibly -- there is quite a difference between primary areas for the lead in NCAAW than there are in NCAAM, for example. But we will never expect officials to reach and call fouls in another official's primary.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey

Z,

Yes, I am serious. Why are you so adamant that you are right about helping in these situations? Is it because someone at camp told you you shouldn't make a call from lead out past the f. throw line? Or, is it that you truly believe you can't get a call right from there? Or, is it just the mechanics that you have been taught as of this date? Do you believe in double whistles? Triple whistles?I'm not saying that that the philosophy might CHANGE to let officials call over the floor - I'm saying that it is already in place. I'm also saying that mechanics and philosophies DO change ALL THE TIME. When they change, will your opinion change?

You never answered the question - how many offball calls per game do you make on the average? BTW, I happen to agree with you on this situation and it is because that is the way that I have been taught - today.

Mulk

Why am I so adamnant? When three-person was implemented, it was so that officials could call in their own area thereby seeing the WHOLE play. In two-person, we often turn and see the end of the play and then conjecture (which is a nice word for guess). That is taught at camps, in the officials manual, in the 3-person guidebook, and by veterans who understand the 3-person philosophy. In fact, 3-person will EXPOSE ball watchers. If you tended to be a ball-watcher in 2-person, you will struggle with 3-person.

In the original play in this post, we already have two officials who should have seen the foul. The C (primary) and the T (secondary). Who is watching the other players if the lead is also looking there? Where is the teamwork of the crew? Where is the trust? Where is the 3-person?

People can conjecture that the Lead had nothing to watch, but I can't recall any times in a transition situation as was described where I (as lead) didn't have anything to watch so I went up near halfcourt to watch the play on the C's side. It doesn't make sense to me. How can we justify the L making a call 50-feet away when two officials are much closer and have responsibility for that play. If the L can make that call, then forget coverage areas and lets just all watch the ball all night.

I would say that my crews make an average of between 3 and 8 offball calls per game. What would happen in the game if those 3-8 calls weren't made? Frustration. Retaliation. Those are GREAT quality calls that mean the difference between a well-played game and a game that can get deteriorate into something ugly.

Double whistles are OK occasionally, but I prefer a delayed whistle from the official who has secondary coverage (the tweet-tweet "echo" thing). A triple whistle? Geez, I hope not... unless maybe it's a held ball in the middle of the key or something. Again, a triple whistle normally exposes a ball-watcher.

Philosophies may change, but off-ball coverage and rough play will ALWAYS be a concern at the high school level. Rough play will was one reason for such a push for 3 officials. Off-ball calls reduce rough play.

Z

[tomegun]

Z, most of what you just posted is a part of my pre-game. It is amazing how many officials hear what you are saying about a delayed whistle and then there are 8 whistles when the play is clearly in one officials primary. I try (TRY) to get this point across by saying we should try to shrink the grey area. I mean nothing more than letting the proper official call plays that are clearly in their area. For instance, when a player is clearly in the lane on the side opposite the L, it is NOT a grey area. That is the C's primary UNLESS it is a foul that happens on the front side and the C cannot physically see it. Even then, we are talking about a call across the lane, not 50ft! I don't like to constantly have double-whistles on routine plays are are clearly in someone's primary. Add to that illegal picks, post play and RSBQ and the game should flow, but it is a requirement to catch things off-ball. If we don't have a number of off-ball fouls, I question how good of a job my crew did.

[rockyroad]

Interesting discussion...off-ball calls are a beautiful thing for a crew to have. While I agree with what tomegun and Z are saying in general, I will add this - One of the assigner/commissioners I work for teaches this: there are 3 types of fouls in basketball. 1)"Oh, that's a foul." 2)"Oh my, that's a foul." 3)"OH MY GOD! That's a foul." Anytime there is a foul of the #3 variety, there HAS to be a call, and I really don't give a rat's a$$ whose primary area it happens in...those types of things that are missed and have no call cause way more problems than the run-of-the-mill off-ball illegal screens that are missed.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by tomegun
Z, most of what you just posted is a part of my pre-game. It is amazing how many officials hear what you are saying about a delayed whistle and then there are 8 whistles when the play is clearly in one officials primary. I try (TRY) to get this point across by saying we should try to shrink the grey area. I mean nothing more than letting the proper official call plays that are clearly in their area. For instance, when a player is clearly in the lane on the side opposite the L, it is NOT a grey area. That is the C's primary UNLESS it is a foul that happens on the front side and the C cannot physically see it. Even then, we are talking about a call across the lane, not 50ft! I don't like to constantly have double-whistles on routine plays are are clearly in someone's primary. Add to that illegal picks, post play and RSBQ and the game should flow, but it is a requirement to catch things off-ball. If we don't have a number of off-ball fouls, I question how good of a job my crew did.

I thought you were a stickler for proper mechanics and staying out of your partner's primary. The definition of primary is solely dictated by the position of the play, not the direction the players are facing. You've just said you'd call a foul in your partner's primary if you think their angle didn't allow them to see it. hmmm. I knew you weren't so stubborn as your earlier posts on this topic seemed to indicate.