Jab by the defender on the jump shooter (non-contact)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick

JR,
To me 4-18-1 more describes a miss than a fake. Where does the fake morph to a miss? Cocking it or pulling it?
mick

A "punch" is a judgement call. However, if you do label something a "punch", then it now becomes bye-bye automatically. It doesn't matter whether you faked it, cocked it, pulled it, made contact or missed it. If you say it's a punch, then you gotta toss whoever threw that punch.

It's completely different than faking "contact".

[jeffpea]

NU1, I think you may be making a "mountain out of a mole-hill".

Would you call a foul on a defensive player for faking a shot block attempt? Would you call a foul on a defensive player for faking a reach-in attempt on the dribbler? Would you call a foul on a defender for faking a double-team/trap?

I don't think you would, or should, call those non-contact defensive actions a foul. Same for your situation as described above. No contact = no foul. I don't understand why someone would call it a foul.

[Nu1]

Jeffpea, I don't think those actions are at all the same. I can see someone faking an attempt to steal (not a "reach in"). An attempt at a block or a trap/double team are all legal actions. I don't see the correlation at all.

Also, some seem to describe a reaching-out-and-gently-touching the shooter type of action.

The action I'm talking about is someone snapping there wrist, faking a back-handed type slap into an opponents groin. I see it very differently. I don't think I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill or using WMD's. I think it's unsporting conduct.

If you (in general - not Jeffpea specifically) are someone who says, "That's nothing, in my opinion." That's the way you see it and that's fine.

If, however, you (again general) are someone who says, "I'd warn them for that." I'm asking what you call if the action continues. They have to be doing something illegal if you're warning them. You can't (justifiably) warn them just because you don't like it. In my opinion, I'd warn them because I think it's unsporting.

[JCrow]

"Back-handed slap" to the groin? I'd sure as heck be taking fade-aways that night! Fade-away hook shots........

[mick]

Originally posted by JCrow
"Back-handed slap" to the groin? I'd sure as heck be taking fade-aways that night! Fade-away hook shots........

[FrankHtown]

Gives a new meaning to fade away jumper.

Yes, poke is a better term. And interestingly, the shooter didn't complain about it, but I have to imagine if someones coming at your midsection, it would be, as a reflex, hard to ignore it.

[TravelinMan]

If I was the player being "jabbed at" by the defender, and it bothered me, I'd make sure he'd cut it out. Ref wouldn't even have to deal with it. But then, that's just me.....

[carldog]

"The action I'm talking about is someone snapping there wrist, faking a back-handed type slap into an opponents groin."

This is the oldest, most ineffective defensive move in existence. I've been playing basketball for 40 years, and the I have yet to look at my groin while shooting.

Would you make a similar call on an identical move in a Women's game? Hmmm?

[Forksref]

Contact should be a foul. Shooters up in the air can be affected by the slightest contact which will be knocked off balance.. This is assuming that basketball is supposed to be a finesse game.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by Nu1
If, however, you (again general) are someone who says, "I'd warn them for that." I'm asking what you call if the action continues. They have to be doing something illegal if you're warning them. You can't (justifiably) warn them just because you don't like it. In my opinion, I'd warn them because I think it's unsporting.

You're missing the point entirely. This is not a legal issue. This is a game management issue.

You can clean up an awful lot of undesirable behavior just by stepping up and addressing it. Like Chuck says, a gruff "knock that off" is almost certainly going to put an immediate end to it.

Why?

Because you are the authority figure, you wear the stripes, your spurs jingle as you strut down main street with pearl handled six-shooters strapped to your hips. It's called presence. Learn to use that power to your advantage.

The majority of the time a kid is going to obey your directive for no other reason than because you're in charge and you told him to. He may wonder "what if?" But he's not likely going to ask. And you're not going to volunteer that information.

And what if he ignores you? Do you have to rush right into issuing a penalty? Heck no. You've got a long road between telling the kid to knock it off and being forced to administer final justice. You can:

• Use your captain.
• Get the coach involved.
• Get in the kid's grill.
• Up the ante by loudly informing your partner that you're watching #32 closely.
• Let him know he has your undivided attention with a couple of quick violation or foul calls.

There are myriad ways of dealing with a kid who won't take a hint that keep the T or WMD or whatever else safely in your pocket.

[Edited by Back In The Saddle on Jan 4th, 2006 at 09:40 PM]

[JCrow]

"This is the oldest, most ineffective defensive move in existence. I've been playing basketball for 40 years, and the I have yet to look at my groin while shooting."

I may NOT look at my groin while shooting....but I'm always cognizant of its happiness & safety!

I've never had anybody do that to me or seen it used in an game.

In a P/U game, I'm sue it would solicit a comment like,

"If you hit me with that, you'll be picking up teeth."

In an organized game that I was Reffing....I'd consider it "Baiting" an opponent into an obvious fighting situation and put an immediate stop to it with a "T". (My opinion.) This stupid technique doesn't belong in basketball and if the kid misses and whacks the shooter.....you have a fight.
If the Coach argued the No-Contact Theory, I'd reply,

"It's covered under the Loose Ball Rule."

[Nu1]

BITSY - valid points and suggestions. Thanks.

Carldog - I don't know how I would handle that in a woman's / girls game. I believe the action I'm talking about has a lot to do with location. I.E. the groin area for men / boys is a...uh...sensitive area. Now, with some expert advice from a woman, I may feel the same way about this situation in a woman's / girls game.

I'll tell you this, if a girl is doing this same type action towards another girls chest area, I'd view it the same, as I believe this area is more sensitive on a female than on a male. If any player was doing it towards another player's face, I'd view it the same.

I view the action as faking a hit...in an area that would cause discomfort / pain...and I think it's unsporting. If other's don't think it's unsporting, that's fine. I guess it's like other situations where officials choose to draw different lines. For example, after a call, a player bounces the ball with great force. Or, someone sees that as a player slamming the ball in disgust. Officials may handle that situation differently.

I'm not trying to change anyones view or opinion on this. I'm just stating what I think...and learning a little along the way.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by SmokeEater
IMO, it would depend on the discreation of the official

Thanks, Yogi. Wow!

[SmokeEater]

Sorry Spelling error - discretion: Freedom to act or judge on one's own.

So critical....

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by SmokeEater
IMO, it would depend on the discreation of the official

Now there's a severe penalty!