Jump stop? - Page 3

tomegun · #31 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 08, 2006, 06:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by refTN

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Additionally, in HS and NCAA, there is no pivot foot after a jump stop (or hop-stop or whatever we want to call it). A1 catches the ball, lands on one foot, jumps off that foot and lands on two feet simultaneously. At that point, A1 may not pivot.

However, in the NBA, the "landing on two feet" is the second "count", and A1 is allowed to pivot.

It depends on the gather in both leagues whether you can pivot or not. If a player ends on the count of two in the NBA there is no pivot. If you end on the count of one you may pivot.

In college if you virtually gather the ball while in the air and land with both feet simultaneously you may pivot. If you gather it with one foot on the floor, and jump stop you may not pivot or land with a one-two count. Although I don't need to be telling you about the college rule, but I do know the NBA rule.

OK, how much experience do you have with either rule? I know you aren't IN the NBA and we all know you will be hard pressed to find substantial footage of this call on film. For HS and college I would like for you to send me a clip of someone gathering the ball while they are in the air and I will support you. Until then, the vast majority of my experience has been the dribbler gathering the ball before they are in the air. Also, if the feet land close to the same time, I agree it would be nit-picking. However, most of the time it IS called because it isn't close together. I will always tell you I appreciate your enthusiasm, but do not get caught up thinking knowing the rules word for word is a substitute for experience.

I don't know how long you have been working but I think there isn't anywhere in the country with the volume of the DC area. There are officials here who think they have this licked after 4 years, and they don't. For comparison, I think one year here in DC is about the same as 2.5 years in Las Vegas or Phoenix. How much to you work where you are at?

refTN · #32 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 08, 2006, 07:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun

Quote:

Originally posted by refTN

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Additionally, in HS and NCAA, there is no pivot foot after a jump stop (or hop-stop or whatever we want to call it). A1 catches the ball, lands on one foot, jumps off that foot and lands on two feet simultaneously. At that point, A1 may not pivot.

However, in the NBA, the "landing on two feet" is the second "count", and A1 is allowed to pivot.

It depends on the gather in both leagues whether you can pivot or not. If a player ends on the count of two in the NBA there is no pivot. If you end on the count of one you may pivot.

In college if you virtually gather the ball while in the air and land with both feet simultaneously you may pivot. If you gather it with one foot on the floor, and jump stop you may not pivot or land with a one-two count. Although I don't need to be telling you about the college rule, but I do know the NBA rule.

OK, how much experience do you have with either rule? I know you aren't IN the NBA and we all know you will be hard pressed to find substantial footage of this call on film. For HS and college I would like for you to send me a clip of someone gathering the ball while they are in the air and I will support you. Until then, the vast majority of my experience has been the dribbler gathering the ball before they are in the air. Also, if the feet land close to the same time, I agree it would be nit-picking. However, most of the time it IS called because it isn't close together. I will always tell you I appreciate your enthusiasm, but do not get caught up thinking knowing the rules word for word is a substitute for experience.

I don't know how long you have been working but I think there isn't anywhere in the country with the volume of the DC area. There are officials here who think they have this licked after 4 years, and they don't. For comparison, I think one year here in DC is about the same as 2.5 years in Las Vegas or Phoenix. How much to you work where you are at?

You are right, it is hard pressed to find a move where a player gathers the ball in the air but all the web plays I have show most plays in slow motion after you see it in real time, but when you watch it in real time you can't really distinguish so why not just give the benefit of the doubt?

Actually the only film I could show you is NBA footage. So if you can tell me how to send it to you since I am pretty much computer illiterate, I will. I mean as far as sending a film as an attachment on email or what not.

tomegun · #33 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 08, 2006, 09:03pm

You don't give them the benefit of the doubt in this case because dribblers gather with a foot on the ground, the majority of the time, and it would give them an advantage to allow a pivot. Since it is a violation and can be used as an advantage, why would this be different from someone carrying the ball and freezing a defender?

How big is the attachment? If it isn't too big, you can send it to me through an email. What is the clip going to show me? Remember, the NBA has a different traveling rule, or at least they interpret it differently. This is one thing that will get you in trouble if you apply it to a college or high school game.

Tell me (us) how much experience you have and at what level? I want to say up front, I have seen you work (on tape) and you are good. Being a good, young official still isn't a replacement for games during a season.

ChuckElias · #34 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 09, 2006, 08:42am

Quote:

Originally posted by refTN
If a player ends on the count of two in the NBA there is no pivot. If you end on the count of one you may pivot.

What does this mean? "If a player ends". . . Ends what? You can't mean ending your dribble, b/c the 2-count starts after the dribble has ended.

Quote:

In college if you virtually gather the ball while in the air

What the fat does this even mean?!?! "Virtually gather"? What is that? What is virtually gathering? I literally have no idea what you are talking about. It sounds like you're muddying the waters simply to make it sound better. But it makes no sense at all.

Quote:

If you gather it with one foot on the floor, and jump stop you may not pivot or land with a one-two count.

Unless the NBA rule has changed in the last few years (and it's possible that it has), this is simply incorrect.

tomegun · #35 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 09, 2006, 09:19am

Chuck,

I think refTN has heard and paid attention to some people that offer catchy phrases but he doesn't have the experience to apply them. Something like a person that has yet to do their intern.
I will give him credit because I think he will be good one day, he is actually good now but he doesn't have a lot of experience. I hope he doesn't change is run or his signals to fit anyone but him, if you know what I mean.

ChuckElias · #36 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 09, 2006, 09:25am

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun
Chuck,

I think refTN has heard and paid attention to some people that offer catchy phrases but he doesn't have the experience to apply them.

That seems right. That last post almost made my head explode, tho.

refTN · #37 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 09, 2006, 09:57am

Tom your are right, I listen to two very important people in my officiating career and one is in the SEC and the other works in the SEC, but does alot of his work in the NBA D-League and neither one have a different interp on traveling. As far as experience goes I have reffed over 700 games, but ironically have never reffed a regular season high school game(I was supposed to this year but I broke my leg). Finally I have reffed NBA players as well.

Chuck,
I don't know if they have changed the rule but they just don't judge too hard about whether the foot is on the ground when they gather the ball. They judge whether the gather was LATE or EARLY. LATE would mean you can pivot and EARLY means no pivot.

ChuckElias · #38 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 09, 2006, 10:52am

Quote:

Originally posted by refTN
I don't know if they have changed the rule but they just don't judge too hard about whether the foot is on the ground when they gather the ball. They judge whether the gather was LATE or EARLY. LATE would mean you can pivot and EARLY means no pivot.

No offense, TN, but this is gibberish to me. Who cares if it's late (11:30 pm) or early (6 am)? Late or early has nothing to do with the rules. The rules say that if you catch the ball with one foot on the floor, etc. That's what you have to judge.

If you have a "rule of thumb" that says, "If you're not sure if his foot was on the floor, then assume it wasn't", that's fine with me. I can understand that. That's like "If you're not sure it's a 3, then it's a 2". Fine.

But early or late or virtually gathering, that's all nonsense. Ok? Whatever rule-set you're using, traveling comes down to identifying the pivot foot. Period. Find the foot when he catches the ball, and then you know if he still has a pivot after the jump.

tomegun · #39 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 09, 2006, 11:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by refTN
I don't know if they have changed the rule but they just don't judge too hard about whether the foot is on the ground when they gather the ball. They judge whether the gather was LATE or EARLY. LATE would mean you can pivot and EARLY means no pivot.

No offense, TN, but this is gibberish to me. Who cares if it's late (11:30 pm) or early (6 am)? Late or early has nothing to do with the rules. The rules say that if you catch the ball with one foot on the floor, etc. That's what you have to judge.

If you have a "rule of thumb" that says, "If you're not sure if his foot was on the floor, then assume it wasn't", that's fine with me. I can understand that. That's like "If you're not sure it's a 3, then it's a 2". Fine.

But early or late or virtually gathering, that's all nonsense. Ok? Whatever rule-set you're using, traveling comes down to identifying the pivot foot. Period. Find the foot when he catches the ball, and then you know if he still has a pivot after the jump.