Injury/Correctable error?

[Bad Zebra]

Player A1 is fouled and injured driving to the basket. Coach is summoned to the floor to attend to injured A1. 2 free throws awarded. Player A1 recovers and officials mistakenly allow him (A1) to shoot a free throw. During dead ball following successful first attempt, official realizes error of letting player stay in the game. Official blows whistle, sends player out, explains errors to coaches, beckons sub to the free throw line to shoot.

Now...

1.) Is this a correctible error?
2.) What should be done with the first successful free throw point? leading to...
3.) How many shots awarded to sub?

[Edited by Bad Zebra on Dec 30th, 2005 at 09:20 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Bad Zebra
Player A1 is fouled and injured driving to the basket. Coach is summoned to the floor to attend to injured A1. 2 free throws awarded. Player A1 recovers and officials mistakenly allow him (A1) to shoot a free throw. During dead ball following successful first attempt, official realizes error of letting player stay in the game. Official blows whistle, sends player out, explains errors to coaches, beckons sub to the free throw line to shoot.

Now...

1.) Is this a correctible error?
2.) What should be done with the first successful free throw point? leading to...
3.) How many shots awarded to sub?

1) Yes, it's a correctible error, as per NFHS rule 2-10-1(c)- "permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw". It's also corrected in a timely fashion as per rule 2-10-2.
2) The first successful free throw is cancelled, as per rule 2-10-4.
3) A1's substitute will shoot both of the free throws that A1 had coming- as per rule 2-10-6. The teams will line up along the lanes as per the same rule.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Yes, it's a correctible error, as per NFHS rule 2-10-1(c)- "permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw". It's also corrected in a timely fashion as per rule 2-10-2.
2) The first successful free throw is cancelled, as per rule 2-10-4.
3) A1's substitute will shoot both of the free throws that A1 had coming- as per rule 2-10-6. The teams will line up along the lanes as per the same rule.

JR, I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment, although there certainly is merit to your decision. (Plus you misspelled "correctable." )
1. No, this is NOT a correctable error. A1 was the player who was offended by the personal foul, and although he should have been directed to leave the game by the officials per 3-3-5, he must still be considered the correct shooter according to 8-2 until he is replaced by a substitute.
That fact that he was not replaced is nothing more than an officials' mistake. There are other examples of officials' mistakes in the case book, which are not considered correctable errors. See 7.5.2SitB and 8.7SitB.

Consequently,
2. The result of the first FT attempt stands as it was merited and attempted by the correct player.
3. The belated substitute now enters the game and will attempt the final merited FT per 8-2. The game will continue as normal from there.



Rule references:
8-2 "The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul shall be attempted by the offended player. If such player must withdraw because of an injury or disqualification, his/her substitute shall attempt the throw(s) unless no substitute is available, in which case any teammate may attempt the throw(s) as selected by the team captain or head coach."

3-3-5 "A player who has been injured to the extent that the coach or any other bench personnel is beckoned and/or comes onto the court shall be directed to leave the game, unless a time-out is requested by, and granted to, his/her team and the situation can be corrected by the end of the time-out."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

JR, I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment, although there certainly is merit to your decision. (Plus you misspelled "correctable." )
1. No, this is NOT a correctable error. A1 was the player who was offended by the personal foul, and although he should have been directed to leave the game by the officials per 3-3-5, he must still be considered the correct shooter according to 8-2 until he is replaced by a substitute.
That fact that he was not replaced is nothing more than an officials' mistake. There are other examples of officials' mistakes in the case book, which are not considered correctable errors. See 7.5.2SitB and 8.7SitB.

Consequently,
2. The result of the first FT attempt stands as it was merited and attempted by the correct player.
3. The belated substitute now enters the game and will attempt the final merited FT per 8-2. The game will continue as normal from there.

Rule references:
8-2 "The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul shall be attempted by the offended player. If such player must withdraw because of an injury or disqualification, his/her substitute shall attempt the throw(s) unless no substitute is available, in which case any teammate may attempt the throw(s) as selected by the team captain or head coach."

3-3-5 "A player who has been injured to the extent that the coach or any other bench personnel is beckoned and/or comes onto the court shall be directed to leave the game unless a time-out is requested by, and granted to, his/her team and the situation can be corrected by the end of the time-out."

"Nuff said.

You destroyed your own argument when you cited 8-2 & 3-3-5.

Note the statements "MUST WITHDRAW" and "SHALL BE DIRECTED TO LEAVE THE GAME" in the cited rules. Those are definitive statements. No TO was requested either to keep the injured player in the game.

We disagree.

[Nevadaref]

Now in the interest of unearthing the truth for this situation, I am going to post a play ruling that could possibly be construed to support JR's ruling that this should be considered a case of the wrong player attempting a FT and indeed is a correctable error.

2005-06 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 1: A1 is fouled by B1 late in the second quarter. It is a common foul and the seventh Team B foul. The bonus situation is not recognized by the scorer or the officiating crew, and the Team A coach substitutes A6 for A1. A6 is beckoned onto the floor and A1 goes to the team bench. The scorer recognizes the error and sounds the horn (a) just before or (b) just after the administering official hands the ball to A2 for a throw-in. RULING: This is a correctable-error situation and falls within the proper timeframe for a correction. In both (a) and (b), A6 leaves the game with A1 re-entering to shoot the bonus free throw. Play is resumed as after any free-throw attempt(s). If the second free throw is successful and the coach desires, A6 may re-enter the contest. (2-10-1a; 2-10-6)

However, in my opinion, this interpretation is lacking in certain key factors.
1. A6 never attempted a FT in this play. The merited FT for the bonus situation was never attempted at all. That is the correctable error here. A far more interesting interpretation would be one in which A6 erroneously enters and attempts the FTs.
2. The officials must allow A1 back into the game despite 3-3-4 because the requirements of 8-2 are more important. The substitution should not have been allowed per 3-3-2, that fact that is was is simply an officials' mistake that is easily fixed. The fact that the NFHS ruled in this manner lends support to my ruling in the previous post that the requirements of 8-2 trump those in 3-3.
3. Due to the fact that A1 did not have to withdraw due to injury or disqualification, A6 could not legally replace him as the designated free thrower despite the fact that he did actually substitute for him (and even became a legal player in (b) per 3-3-3).

[Nevadaref]

...you cited 8-2 & 3-3-5.

Note the statements "MUST WITHDRAW" and "SHALL BE DIRECTED TO LEAVE THE GAME" in the cited rules. Those are definitive statements. No TO was requested either to keep the injured player in the game.

We disagree. [/B]

I think that we have to ask, "At the time the FT was attempted who was the designated free thrower?" My answer is A1. Why? No substitute for him had legally entered the game to take his place as the designated free thrower. I don't see how we can consider a team member who is sitting on the bench and not even legally in the game to be the correct "player" (2-10-1(3) does specify wrong player), despite the requirement of 3-3-5. Who else would qualify as the correct "player" at the time the FT was attempted? My answer is no one does.

I just cannot believe that permitting the player who actually was fouled to attempt the FT(s) awarded as the penalty for that foul could be considered a correctable error. This whole mess qualifies as an officials' mistake in the administration of the game. The rules cited above say "shall BE DIRECTED" and the officials never did this. So A1 was the right player at the time.

[Nevadaref]

I just thought of another play with similar key aspects to the situation that we are discussing.

A3 is fouled by B3 in the act of shooting an unsuccessful two point try. Just after the official sounds the whistle and calls the foul, A3 retaliates by shoving B3. A3 is charged with a technical foul. The technical foul is A3's fifth accumulated foul (personal and technical) of the game. However, the scorer fails to notify the officials until after A3 attempts both FTs for the personal foul and B1 attempts both technical FTs. A3 and B1 each made both FTs. The scorer notified the officials of A3's fifth foul prior to the ball being placed at the disposal of a member of Team B for the division line throw-in. Clearly A3 should not have been allowed to remain in the game and attempt those FTs per 2-8-3, 10-5-3, and 4.14.1SitA.

2-8-3 The officials shall:
"...Remove a player from the game who commits his/her fifth foul (personal and technical)."

10-5-3 ". . . The head coach must replace or remove a disqualified/injured player, or player directed to leave the game, within 30 seconds when a substitute is available, while within the confines of his/her bench."


"DISQUALIFICATION
4.14.1 SITUATION A: A1 is fouled by B1 while Team A is in the bonus. The covering official is at the table reporting the foul when A1 is charged with a technical foul by the official who is observing the players. The foul on A1 is his/her fifth. RULING: A1 is disqualified as both personal and technical fouls are counted. Because A1 has been disqualified he/she will not be allowed to attempt the free throw(s) resulting from B1's foul. The substitute for A1 will shoot the free throw(s). (8-2)"


Is this a correctable error? Should A3's FTs count?
(I thought that there was a case book play or NFHS interp on this, but I can't seem to find it. Can anyone help?)

We must consider the following in making our ruling:

4-14 DISQUALIFIED PLAYER
"ART. 1 . . . A disqualified player is one who is barred from further participation in the game because of having committed his/her fifth foul (personal and technical), two technical fouls or a flagrant foul.
ART. 2 . . . A player is officially disqualified and becomes bench personnel when the coach is notified by an official."


2-11-11 Note 2.
"The procedure if a player who has committed his/her fifth foul continues to play because the scorer has failed to notify the official is as follows: As soon as the scorer discovers the irregularity, the game horn should be sounded after, or as soon as, the ball is in control of the offending team or is dead. The disqualified player must be removed immediately. Any points which may have been scored while such player was illegally in the game are counted. If other aspects of the error are correctable, the procedure to be followed is included among the duties of the officials."

"DESIGNATED FREE THROWER
8.2 COMMENT: When A1 is designated to attempt a free throw(s), no other player shall be permitted to make the attempt unless A1 is injured or disqualified prior to the attempt. If the wrong player attempts the free throw, it may be corrected as prescribed in 2-10. In certain situations, the attempt by the wrong player may be due to a justifiable misunderstanding. In such case, there should be no penalty. But, if it is a situation in which it is reasonable to expect the player to know that he/she is not the proper one to attempt the free throw, a technical foul for unsporting conduct shall be called. In this situation, the proper player is entitled to his/her free throw(s) which will be followed by the administration of the technical foul. (10-3-7f)"



My ruling is that A3 is not disqualified until the coach is notified, so A3 was a legal player even though he should have been replaced and should not have been permitted to attempt the 2FTs. A3 clearly was the player who was fouled. I'm counting both of A3's FTs as well as B1's and now taking care of A3's disqualification before resuming the game with Team B's throw-in.

What are the thoughts of others?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
What are the thoughts of others?

I hope you don't go through this kind of thinking process when you are calling a game!! And they say I over think things...

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Bad Zebra
Player A1 is fouled and injured driving to the basket. Coach is summoned to the floor to attend to injured A1. 2 free throws awarded. Player A1 recovers and officials mistakenly allow him (A1) to shoot a free throw. During dead ball following successful first attempt, official realizes error of letting player stay in the game. Official blows whistle, sends player out, explains errors to coaches, beckons sub to the free throw line to shoot.

Now...

1.) Is this a correctible error?
2.) What should be done with the first successful free throw point? leading to...
3.) How many shots awarded to sub?

[Edited by Bad Zebra on Dec 30th, 2005 at 09:20 AM]

FED 2000 - 2001 Basketball Interpretations, Supplement #1 (11/9/00)

SITUATION 5: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting and is awarded two free throws. A1 is injured on the play and Team A's coach has been beckoned on the floor to attend to A1. Although by rule A1 should leave the game until the next legal opportunity to substitute, the oficials make an error and permit A1 to complete the free thorws before leaving. The opposing coah objects and insists that A1's substitute should have shot the free throws, and a correctable error has occurred. RULING: The officials made3 an error by permitting A1 to remain in the game. This is not a correctable error for a wrong player to attempt a free throw, even though A1 is required to leave the game by rule.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
[/B]

FED 2000 - 2001 Basketball Interpretations, Supplement #1 (11/9/00)

SITUATION 5: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting and is awarded two free throws. A1 is injured on the play and Team A's coach has been beckoned on the floor to attend to A1. Although by rule A1 should leave the game until the next legal opportunity to substitute, the oficials make an error and permit A1 to complete the free thorws before leaving. The opposing coah objects and insists that A1's substitute should have shot the free throws, and a correctable error has occurred. RULING: The officials made3 an error by permitting A1 to remain in the game. This is not a correctable error for a wrong player to attempt a free throw, even though A1 is required to leave the game by rule.

[/B][/QUOTE]Shut up.

Well, that takes care of that. All my arguments......poof.

Do I really have to admit now that Nevada was right all along, and I was wrong?

He was. And I was.

Thanks, Bob.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

FED 2000 - 2001 Basketball Interpretations, Supplement #1 (11/9/00)

SITUATION 5: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting and is awarded two free throws. A1 is injured on the play and Team A's coach has been beckoned on the floor to attend to A1. Although by rule A1 should leave the game until the next legal opportunity to substitute, the oficials make an error and permit A1 to complete the free thorws before leaving. The opposing coah objects and insists that A1's substitute should have shot the free throws, and a correctable error has occurred. RULING: The officials made3 an error by permitting A1 to remain in the game. This is not a correctable error for a wrong player to attempt a free throw, even though A1 is required to leave the game by rule.

[/B]

Shut up.

Well, that takes care of that. All my arguments......poof.

Do I really have to admit now that Nevada was right all along, and I was wrong?

He was. And I was.

Thanks, Bob. [/B][/QUOTE]

Right on, Bob!!!

And JR, you're still DA MAN.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

FED 2000 - 2001 Basketball Interpretations, Supplement #1 (11/9/00)

SITUATION 5: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting and is awarded two free throws. A1 is injured on the play and Team A's coach has been beckoned on the floor to attend to A1. Although by rule A1 should leave the game until the next legal opportunity to substitute, the oficials make an error and permit A1 to complete the free thorws before leaving. The opposing coah objects and insists that A1's substitute should have shot the free throws, and a correctable error has occurred. RULING: The officials made3 an error by permitting A1 to remain in the game. This is not a correctable error for a wrong player to attempt a free throw, even though A1 is required to leave the game by rule.

[/B]

Shut up.

Well, that takes care of that. All my arguments......poof.

Do I really have to admit now that Nevada was right all along, and I was wrong?

He was. And I was.

Thanks, Bob. [/B][/QUOTE]

Even though A1 should have been replaced, I believe A1 became a legal player once the ball became live and can not longer be forced to leave the game.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Even though A1 should have been replaced, I believe A1 became a legal player once the ball became live and can not longer be forced to leave the game.

I thought of that argument earlier when making my previous posts, but discarded it because A1 actually remains a player the entire time since he was never replaced by a substitute. (3-3-3)

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

I thought of that argument earlier when making my previous posts, but discarded it because A1 actually remains a player the entire time since he was never replaced by a substitute. (3-3-3)

But does A1 now have to leave the game after it is discovered that they hadn't left? The ball has become live since they were supposed to have been replaced. I think not.

[Nevadaref]

Camron,
I'm going to split your posts into two different concepts.

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Even though A1 should have been replaced, I believe A1 became a legal player once the ball became live...

It was this part of your reasoning that I didn't agree with
when I wrote above that A1 remains a player the entire time. 3-3-3 deals with substitutes becoming players, not players remaining players. It says, "If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live." My belief is that since A1 never was a substitute 3-3-3 doesn't apply to him at all.

Originally posted by Camron Rust
...and can no longer be forced to leave the game.

Originally posted by Camron Rust
But does A1 now have to leave the game after it is discovered that they hadn't left? The ball has become live since they were supposed to have been replaced. I think not.

This part of your thought process is worth investigating. A player who should have been directed to leave during a dead ball isn't. Should he still be directed to leave during the next dead ball or any subsequent one when the officials realize the mistake?

If the officials realize the mistake between the first and second FTs, do they have the authority BY RULE to direct the player to leave the game at this time?

It seems unclear to me right now.
I'll have to think about this and get back to you later.