Calling the flop

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by lmeadski

Dont mean to cut this so thin, but, if the defender has not hit the floor yet, but is virtually down (15 degrees from the floor, lets say), and A runs into him and goes to the floor, it is a foul on A? Really?

Well, let's take a step back and analyse your play.

A1 drives the lane.

Defender B1 leans back (some would say flop) just before A1 makes contact to draw the charge. A1 continues driving the lane & makes contact with B1 as B1 is 15 deg from the floor.

Analysis:

B1 would have to propel himself to the floor pretty damn quickly to be 15 deg off the floor when A1 makes contact. Since I do not allow players to play with a jetpack on their chest I've never seen such a thing. Really.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally posted by lmeadski
if the defender leans back all the way to the floor (a real long lean, sometimes referred to as falling), the defender still has LGP?

Look for a limbo stick....

[lmeadski]

I guess what I was really looking for was a definition of LGP as it relates to flopping. I made a no call on a flop where, had the D held his ground, i would have called the charge. But, the kid starts to take a dive, A makes contact (the defender is almost halfway to the ground when the collision happens). However, the defender's feet are still on the ground, just not underneath him anymore. Both kids end up on the floor, both coaches are on my butt like a wild hair.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

If A1 charges into him as he's leaning he has lgp.

If A1 (or any A) trips over him after he hits the floor he's guilty of blocking.

To go just a little further on what Dan said, the defender after establishing LGP is allowed to protect himself from a charge. Check out rule 4-23-3(e)-"After the initial legal guarding position is obtained, the guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact".

- little or no contact-- it's a flop and either a no-call or a "T".
- no contact and the defender flops, and then the airborne shooter comes back down and trips over the defender---block.
- LGP by the defender before the shooter leaves his feet-- it's a charge if there's significant contact even though the defender leans back, ducks, etc. to protect himself.
- No LGP when the shooter leaves his feet, or LGP but the defender then moves towards the shooter after he's airborne--it's a block.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally posted by lmeadski
I guess what I was really looking for was a definition of LGP as it relates to flopping. I made a no call on a flop where, had the D held his ground, i would have called the charge. But, the kid starts to take a dive, A makes contact (the defender is almost halfway to the ground when the collision happens). However, the defender's feet are still on the ground, just not underneath him anymore. Both kids end up on the floor, both coaches are on my butt like a wild hair.

One guy who taught my referee class said,"If the guy has his chin up in the air while going backwards, it is most likely a flop."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by blindzebra
[/B]

Why not reply with that picture of the squirrel, and your other usual informative postings? [/B][/QUOTE]Uh, no, that would be me posting that picture along with my informative-rolleyes- postings.


The picture adds more value to this forum than the endless, pointless flame wars you delight in starting with other posters imo.

Of course, that jmo. Feel free to reply. I won't be doing so any further than this. Waste of time.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by lmeadski

You are kidding, right? First, I never said he was 15 degrees off the floor,

C'mon, you said 15 deg off the floor. That is exactly what you said. You were not even clever enough to clip it from your post here.

Peddle your horsesh1t elsewhere troll.

[lmeadski]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

To go just a little further on what Dan said, the defender after establishing LGP is allowed to protect himself from a charge. Check out rule 4-23-3(e)-"After the initial legal guarding position is obtained, the guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact".

- little or no contact-- it's a flop and either a no-call or a "T".
- no contact and the defender flops, and then the airborne shooter comes back down and trips over the defender---block.
- LGP by the defender before the shooter leaves his feet-- it's a charge if there's significant contact even though the defender leans back, ducks, etc. to protect himself.
- No LGP when the shooter leaves his feet, or LGP but the defender then moves towards the shooter after he's airborne--it's a block.

Thanks, JR, i am aware that defenders have a right to defend themselves. It is obvious when a player is defending himself vs. flopping to the ground. Just trying to work this through my thick brain. And, i think the answer I am looking for might end up just being a judgment call.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by lmeadski
I guess what I was really looking for was a definition of LGP as it relates to flopping. I made a no call on a flop where, had the D held his ground, i would have called the charge. But, the kid starts to take a dive, A makes contact (the defender is almost halfway to the ground when the collision happens). However, the defender's feet are still on the ground, just not underneath him anymore. Both kids end up on the floor, both coaches are on my butt like a wild hair.

It's a flop if you judge it to be faking to get a foul.

The complete dive is easy to call, they are falling before A1 gets near them, they convulse, throw back their arms, and stupidly yell out...the only sound that should be coming out if you'd been drilled in the chest is ooofff...and they fall.

No LGP, worst case...by rule...it's a T, in practice it's a no-call if they don't contact someone by doing it, and a block if they do.

In all cases they get a knock that stuff off.

The rest is like I said, LGP and contact through the defender.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by lmeadski
[/B]

And, i think the answer I am looking for might end up just being a judgment call. [/B][/QUOTE]Yup, it's always a judgement call on whether it's a flop or not. If it isn't a flop, then you have to determine whether the right call is a block or a charge- if the contact warrants a call (which is another judgement call).

It'll come with experience, believe it or not. Experience is a better teacher than any of us usually are.

[lmeadski]

Take a pamprin! My original post never mentioned a degree at impact. I later posted this:

[/B][/QUOTE]

Dont mean to cut this so thin, but, if the defender has not hit the floor yet, but is virtually down (15 degrees from the floor, lets say), and A runs into him and goes to the floor, it is a foul on A? Really? [/B][/QUOTE]

Couldn't you infer that that was meant to be an example? Maybe the confusion was "from", I didn't mean 15 degrees off the floor (how can one be degrees off the floor?), I meant the defenders body was at a 15 degree angle from the floor, feet still on the hardwood. And, by the way, we don't mind being called Trolls (if you were trying to hurt my feelings or something...).

[Edited by lmeadski on Dec 31st, 2005 at 08:48 AM]

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Why not reply with that picture of the squirrel, and your other usual informative postings? [/B]

Uh, no, that would be me posting that picture along with my informative-rolleyes- postings.


The picture adds more value to this forum than the endless, pointless flame wars you delight in starting with other posters imo.

Of course, that jmo. Feel free to reply. I won't be doing so any further than this. Waste of time. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, I'm the caustic one picking all the fights.

You have bigger ones than the squirrel if you expect anyone to buy that BS.

[lmeadski]

I appreciate the commentary. I was fishing for a ruling on whether or not LGP was lost as a defender was flopping, which would make these calls a bit easier to process.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by lmeadski
Take a pamprin! My original post never mentioned a degree at impact. I later posted this:

Dont mean to cut this so thin, but, if the defender has not hit the floor yet, but is virtually down (15 degrees from the floor, lets say), and A runs into him and goes to the floor, it is a foul on A? Really? [/B][/QUOTE]

Couldn't you infer that that was meant to be an example? And, by the way, we don't mind being called Trolls (if you were trying to hurt my feelings or something...). [/B][/QUOTE]

Ahhh...the royal we. Nice touch.

By the way Your Higness, I didn't mean to insult you by calling you a troll. If I meant to insult you I would have called you an @sshole. But you're entirely too dull to be an @sshole. You're merely a troll.

Anyway, have a good life. Your Highness.

[lmeadski]

That's not even an insult anymore, its kind of subtle foreplay.

I am sure Oatmeal queen will relish reading this thread!

Dan, have a good New Year.