This is part of conversation from a previous thread and I'd like you guys' opinion: A1 has the ball and makes play to the hole. He leaves his feet to shoot (actually, he doesn't have to leave his feet...it's your choice). Before contact is made, B1 begins to flop. Contact is made, A1 splits B1 right down the breast bone. Both players end up on the floor. Shouldn't this be an automatic blocking foul? Didn't B1 lose his "legal guarding position" status when he began his flop? Other posters mentioned that they don't call a charge or a block on this, due to the flop.

For me this one has to be seen. Depending on the severity of the contact, I'll either no call it and tell the kid to stay in and take the contact, call the block if the kid is obviously taking a dive (or if it's really bad, by rule it's a T), or finally, if it's clear that the offensive player is out of control and really creating the contact, I'll call the PC. Sorry it's not a specific answer, but for me, I'd really have to see the play.

B1 does not lose LGP when he leans back.

Does B1 have legal guarding position? Was B1 fouled? If so, you have a PC foul. If not, we play on. There's no loss of guarding position by moving backwards, which is where I would believe one would move when "flopping."

Now, if he flops, stays on the floor, and someone trips over him, then you have an easy blocking call.

I would have a hard time visualizing a play where a "flop" caused contact and created a disadvantage for a driving A1. If it did, then you have your choice of a personal foul or technical foul. I would probably lean toward the former and warn everyone in the FT lane before shooting about the latter.

[/B][/QUOTE]

B1 does not lose LGP when he leans back. [/B][/QUOTE]


I understand that. I am talking the motion of flopping, not just absorbing the blow, or anticipating the blow.

B1 does not lose LGP when he leans back. [/B][/QUOTE]


I understand that. I am talking the motion of flopping, not just absorbing the blow, or anticipating the blow. [/B][/QUOTE]

Isn't flopping leaning back?

That is one of my questions? Does B1 have legal guarding position. By flopping, regardless of how clear it may be, does B1 lose his legal guarding position? If he doesn't, at what time in the flop does he lose it? Ergo my question: is an attempt (no matter how minor or major an attempt) at flopping a guaranteed blocking foul?

I understand that. I am talking the motion of flopping, not just absorbing the blow, or anticipating the blow. [/B][/QUOTE]

Isn't flopping leaning back? [/B][/QUOTE]


Yes, but the natural conclusion to your post (if you mean it this way) is that you can get a technical foul for flopping while remaining in a legal guarding position. May I assume that?

Isn't flopping leaning back? [/B][/QUOTE]


Yes, but the natural conclusion to your post (if you mean it this way) is that you can get a technical foul for flopping while remaining in a legal guarding position. May I assume that? [/B][/QUOTE]

No. I've never given a T for flopping, never will.

My point is if B1 has LGP, leans back & gets smushed into a huge bloodstain in the gym floor by A1 this is not a block.

It's a PC or nothing. If you need to call something call the PC.

Last year our "esteemed" VHSL Rules Interpreter insisted, at our state rules clinic, that we call a T on every flop. Her credibility went from "shaky" to non-existent. There's enough trouble officiating as it is without going lookin' for it!

Remember,
 

I'm just trying to learn from you guys. So, if I am a new ref working with you, I would be advised to ignore flops if the player is in LGP?

No one is saying to ignore the flop for the PC foul. You either have a T for the flop, a no call or a PC. Do not call a block for the contact initiated by the offensive player even if the defender has flopped. Most of these are going to be no calls. Some officials use the palm facing up motion to indicate get up off your butt, I'm not calling a PC because you flopped.

Are you sure?

My original question was
 

Does a defensive player still have LGP if he is flopping? That was my original question. And, if he does, when does he lose his LGP as his body moves towards the floor, only when he leaves his feet? This would imply he could be almost on his back and still have LGP.

[Edited by lmeadski on Dec 30th, 2005 at 07:43 PM]

Dan does not believe flopping exists.

To answer your question, does B1 need to get killed to draw a charge?

No.

If you judge the bail out was trying to keep from getting killed, and that contact by A1, that results in the train wreck was still through B1, call the charge.

If you judge it as that little belly forward, fly back, before contact...that Dan feels never occurs...and A1 goes down after, call the block.

We get paid for judgment, there is no clear cut, cookie cutter rule to apply, we have to see the play and make a call.

Sometimes the best call is the one we don't make.;)