Calling the flop

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by lmeadski

Are you sure? [/B]

100% positive.

I have enough confidence in my ability to talk some bonehead out of flopping twice that I don't need to T him up.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Dan does not believe flopping exists.

Of course I do, try not to be so tedious.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Of course I do, try not to be so tedious.

Tedious would be doing a search and posting links to all the examples of you arguing about no flops.

So either you just love being an arse and arguing or you really don't think there is such a thing as flopping, which is it?

I think we all know the answer.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by RefNVa
Last year our "esteemed" VHSL Rules Interpreter insisted, at our state rules clinic, that we call a T on every flop. Her credibility went from "shaky" to non-existent. There's enough trouble officiating as it is without going lookin' for it!

Except that's not what she said.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by blindzebra

Tedious would be doing a search and posting links to all the examples of you arguing about no flops.

So either you just love being an arse and arguing or you really don't think there is such a thing as flopping, which is it?

I think we all know the answer.

I think we all don't care what you think.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by lmeadski
I'm just trying to learn from you guys. So, if I am a new ref working with you, I would be advised to ignore flops if the player is in LGP?

A "flop" is faking being fouled. That's why it's a "T" under Rule 10-3-7(f).

Maybe this will help- the description of "flopping" from a POE in last year's rule book:

FLOPPING:
The defensive player or screener acting as though he or she has been charged by an opponent, when in fact he or she has not been...The 'actor' wants to create the false impression that he or she has been fouled in the charging/guarding situation, or while he or she is screening when in either case there is no contact or incidental contact. The 'actor' falls to the floor as though he or she was knocked down by the force of the contact. These actions are designed to have a foul charged to the opponents- a foul not deserved.

Iow, if it's a "flop' by the defender, there is very little or no actual contact involved. The defender is faking it all the way.

If there is an appreciable amount of contact, that's when you have to worry about LGP,etc. to make either a block or charge call.

Hope that helps.

Personally, if a defender flops on me, I'll whisper in his ear to cut that sh!t out because he's making me look bad. I might mention it to his coach too if it's an Oscar quality flop. Please don't do what I did once though. A coach hollered at me after one of his kids flopped "What do you call that?" I hollered back "The judge from France gives him 9.7". Just slipped out. Not as good idea to make smart remarks like that unless you're prepared to listen to 'em coming back at ya.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I think we all don't care what you think.

Gee, I think I'll keep chipping in anyway with quality posts.

Why not reply with that picture of the squirrel, and your other usual informative postings?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by blindzebra

Gee, I think I'll keep chipping in anyway with quality posts.

Why not reply with that picture of the squirrel, and your other usual informative postings?

That's it, eh?

Great...enjoy yourself junior.

[lmeadski]

[QUOTE

Iow, if it's a "flop' by the defender, there is very little or no actual contact involved. The defender is faking it all the way.

If there is an appreciable amount of contact, that's when you have to worry about LGP,etc. to make either a block or charge call.



[/B][/QUOTE]


Thanks, JR. Let me twist the knife a bit further: There can be a appreciable amount of contact as the player is flopping (defender wouldn't be taking the dive if someone wasn't bearing down on him or her). We all know that. You mention if there IS alot of contact, then you have to worry about LGP.

Back to my original question: at what point in the flop does the defender lose his LGP? When he hits the floor? At 74.6 degrees from perpendicular to the floor? At some point in the flop the defender must lose LGP, or he/she would be able to maintain LGP while laying on the floor. Or, as the rule states, are all flops fouls?

[Edited by lmeadski on Dec 30th, 2005 at 10:09 PM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by lmeadski
[QUOTE

Iow, if it's a "flop' by the defender, there is very little or no actual contact involved. The defender is faking it all the way.

If there is an appreciable amount of contact, that's when you have to worry about LGP,etc. to make either a block or charge call.

Thanks, JR. Let me twist the knife a bit further: There can be a appreciable amount of contact as the player is flopping (they wouldn't be taking the dive if someone wasn't bearing down on them). We all know that. You mention if there IS alot of contact, then you have to worry about LGP.

Back to my original question: at what point in the flop does the defender lose his LGP? When he hits the floor? At 74.6 degrees from perpendicular to the floor? At some point in the flop the defender loses LGP. Or, as the rule states, all flops are fouls. I just wonder how the pros rationalize this?
[/B][/QUOTE]

B1 does not lose LGP when he leans back.

Ever.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by lmeadski
flopping isnt just leaning back. Flopping means falling to the floor. Re-read my prior post.

Falling to the floor is legal.

Unless your opponent trips over you, but that's another thread.

(Of course you don't believe what you just wrote...re-read your prior post.)

[lmeadski]

if the defender leans back all the way to the floor (a real long lean, sometimes referred to as falling), the defender still has LGP?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by lmeadski
if the defender leans back all the way to the floor (a real long lean, sometimes referred to as falling), the defender still has LGP?

If A1 charges into him as he's leaning he has lgp.

If A1 (or any A) trips over him after he hits the floor he's guilty of blocking.

[lmeadski]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

If A1 charges into him as he's leaning he has lgp.

If A1 (or any A) trips over him after he hits the floor he's guilty of blocking.

Dont mean to cut this so thin, but, if the defender has not hit the floor yet, but is virtually down (15 degrees from the floor, lets say), and A runs into him and goes to the floor, it is a foul on A? Really?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by lmeadski
[QUOTE

Iow, if it's a "flop' by the defender, there is very little or no actual contact involved. The defender is faking it all the way.

If there is an appreciable amount of contact, that's when you have to worry about LGP,etc. to make either a block or charge call.

Thanks, JR. Let me twist the knife a bit further: There can be a appreciable amount of contact as the player is flopping (defender wouldn't be taking the dive if someone wasn't bearing down on him or her). We all know that. You mention if there IS alot of contact, then you have to worry about LGP.

Back to my original question: at what point in the flop does the defender lose his LGP? When he hits the floor? At 74.6 degrees from perpendicular to the floor? At some point in the flop the defender must lose LGP, or he/she would be able to maintain LGP while laying on the floor. Or, as the rule states, are all flops fouls?

[Edited by lmeadski on Dec 30th, 2005 at 10:09 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]

Like I said before, there really is no cut and dried answer to that question.

If during that bail out move B1's lower body moves toward A1 that means movement toward the opponent at the point of contact, thus no LGP and a block.

If you are talking flat out taking a Nestea plunge to the floor, I've been known to call any contact after the flop a block at that point.

The best advice I can give you is find the defender, judge LGP and look for contact through the defender.