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I look at it this way: if the defender swats and the ball is not blocked it's a foul. If you no-call these then you'll have players on both ends swatting at everything. [/B][/QUOTE]And if you call it consistently at both ends, then most players (if they got any smarts at all) will stop swatting at trhe ball and try to go straight up with the arms on D instead. |
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Hmmm, think I'll have a snack...
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HOMER: Just gimme my gun. CLERK: Hold on, the law requires a five-day waiting period; we've got run a background check... HOMER: Five days???? But I'm mad NOW!! |
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From where I sit . . .
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There are lots of players whose shooting technique brings this on - perhaps most prominently in recent years Wayne Turner, Kentucky point guard on a National Championship team.
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Sarchasm: the gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the recipient. |
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Juulie, Did you actually see this play, or did you just think this up? Because if you just thought this up, I'm wondering how? And when? And what other kinds of scenarios are floating around in your head?
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That's my whistle -- and I'm sticking to it! |
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I believe that this thread has provided a worthwhile discussion so far. The only thing that I wish to add is the text of the actual definition of verticality. I've highlighted some parts which we've touched upon so far. Every once in a while it is good to put some of these phrases at the forefront of our minds. I have two games this evening and I know that I'll go into them thinking about this.
For me the crucial question is does the defender have to position or extend his arms into the vertical space prior to the offensive player putting his arms there in order to be protected from being charged with a foul by the principle of verticality? Perhaps more directly stated, is it a foul for the defender to wait until the offensive player has extended his arms into the vertical space above the defender and then shoot his arms up into that space thereby making contact with the offensive player? The way I read the rule below, my answer is yes to both. RULE 4 SECTION 45 VERTICALITY Verticality applies to a legal position. The basic components of the principle of verticality are: ART. 1 . . . Legal guarding position must be obtained initially and movement thereafter must be legal. ART. 2 . . . From this position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his/her vertical plane. ART. 3 . . . The hands and arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical plane while on the floor or in the air. ART. 4 . . . The defender should not be penalized for leaving the floor vertically or having his/her hands and arms extended within his/her vertical plane. ART. 5 . . . The offensive player whether on the floor or airborne, may not clear out or cause contact within the defender's vertical plane which is a foul. ART. 6 . . . . The defender may not belly up or use the lower part of the body or arms to cause contact outside his/her vertical plane which is a foul. ART. 7 . . . The player with the ball is to be given no more protection or consideration than the defender in judging which player has violated the rules. |
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I think you make an interesting point
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Other than that, I don't see a basis for, and see every reason against, allowing an offensive player to 'invade' the defender's space - anymore than, when a defender leans over an offensive player, I call the foul on the player who wants to straighten up.
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Sarchasm: the gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the recipient. |
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Re: I think you make an interesting point
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Just as a point of reference on this topic, I have two questions....
1) Can you have a foul without contact? My answer: No 2) Is the initiator of the contact the one responsible/ causing the foul? My Answer: yes In the situation described by Juulie, B1 initiated the contact with the swatting of the arms. A1, although technically in B1's "space", has not initiated or caused any contact or displacement of B1. B1 gained an advantage and caused contact which did not touch the ball and affected the shot of A1. This is similar to the touch on the elbow of the shooter, which is very light yet will cause the shooter to miss the shot.
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I'm glad this really happened. I was thinking of a variation of a Christmas classic... "And Rainmaker was nestled all snug in her bed As visions of strange, complicated, and rarely to be seen basketball violations danced in her head!"
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That's my whistle -- and I'm sticking to it! |
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Re: Re: I think you make an interesting point
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Sarchasm: the gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the recipient. |
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I haven't read all the replys, but the way I understand the play is, looking at it from the side, B1 is straight up, with his arms back at like a one o'clock position (must be flexible!!). At some point, he moves his arms back to a 12:00 position either right when or right before A1 has a body part in that area.
If that's the correct situation, you've got nothing, unless B1 is fouled (which he probably won't be). He still has the right to verticality even if he isn't using it at the time the other player breaks his verticle plane. Now, if he moves his BODY back, then moves back forward, he will likely be the one who initiates contact and should be called for a foul, if any. |
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