varsity criticism or just helping!

[HJ25]

Thanks, Bkt.

I know there's a difference (and a notable one) but I think you might agree that there are very few people who will admit they know nothing publicly... of course, people who get past it knew they didn't know much; if you don't know you don't know what you're talking about, you will get a hell of a shock when you find out.

I'm definitely not thinking truerookie's attitude is correct, but most people I know have a little pride that prevents them from taking everything they're told in the exact context (that is, advice.) You'll always take something personally when someone comments about your performance at anything.

[HJ25]

BZ, I know what you mean, I understand what everyone is saying; I'm just saying that I will never believe anyone who says they've never thought they knew more than someone who gave them advice. It's just natural.

[lmeadski]

in your esteemed opinion, when is a newer official deemed ready to ref varsity?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by HJ25
While I can understand what all of you are telling truerookie, I think a lot of you are forgetting something... who has NEVER acted this way? Nobody wants to show their lack of knowledge! If you are new at something it is almost certain that you will not be that good at it, but you don't want people to rub it in.

Of course, "don't give me advice if you don't have an evaluation form in your hand" completely defeats the purpose of that anyway... but I know most of you will remember, at some point in your life and career, that you thought you knew way more than you did - if not for the only purpose of not looking like too much of an idiot.

That said... most of you can also testify that you've done a great deal of learning from more experienced officials; I'm just saying I don't think it's being very honest to pretend you never acted this way.

No, I sureashell never did act that way. If I hadda acted that way when I was a rookie, the senior officials in my association woulda had my azz right out the door before I knew what hit me. I would have been given one chance to change my attitude, and if I didn't do that in a hurry I'd have been gone. And if an official who works for me now acts this way, then he'd better change his attitude in one helluva hurry too. It's not a matter of not wanting to show your lack of knowledge; it's a matter of not wanting to gain any knowledge. That's a helluva difference imo. Guys like this just aren't worth the bother to an assignor. If they don't want to accept input or criticism...buh-bye.

I've been at this avocation for a fair amount of time. I'm still trying to learn too. I also still listen to and ask for other official's opinions, no matter how long they've been officiating. I've gotten a new or fresh slant or ideas before from people who maybe didn't really have that much experience. I'd never dream of telling anyone who was trying to help me to get lost.

[HJ25]

Maybe I should add to my point - if most people didn't act that way (possible, probable), meaning, if you didn't tell someone to get lost when they gave you advice, then most people at some point or another didn't think the advice they were getting was worth anything - either that or they felt insulted. People are this way - and in fact they should be. If you are unable to question what you are being told you probably don't deserve to hear it anyway.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by HJ25
If you are unable to question what you are being told you probably don't deserve to hear it anyway.

You seem to be missing a very big point. There is one heckuva difference between "questioning what you are told" to "don't bother telling me anything". If you'll go back and read, numerous officials have already stated that he should question what he's told, and then keep the good and discard the bad.

If it was just a simple matter of questioning something that another official told him, you wouldn't have had any of the responses that have been posted so far. There is nothing the matter with questioning advice. However, that's completely different than an official who doesn't want to take any advice.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by HJ25
Maybe I should add to my point - if most people didn't act that way (possible, probable), meaning, if you didn't tell someone to get lost when they gave you advice, then most people at some point or another didn't think the advice they were getting was worth anything - either that or they felt insulted. People are this way - and in fact they should be. If you are unable to question what you are being told you probably don't deserve to hear it anyway.

We get that, and if you re-read the thread, several posters said as much.

I think it is obvious that all of us have had advice while coming up that was not worth listening to, BUT you still need to just grin and bare it when you get it.

It is also pretty clear that officials contributing to this forum and taking their free time to be there early to watch less experienced officials, deserve at least the respect to listen to their advice.

To shut off that input does an official no good, and once that attitude makes the rounds, that official may as well stop working because they will not be moving up.

[HJ25]

All right, I get what you are saying better now. And I definitely agree.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by lmeadski
in your esteemed opinion, when is a newer official deemed ready to ref varsity?

That is a loaded question. That depends on the area, fellow officialÂ’s ability, basic requirements and any who they might work with.

There is no magic formula or way to decide when someone is ready. Every assignor or officials might have a requirement I can imagine if 10 different people give an answer, you will have 10 different answers. I know when I choose a crew to work a game I consider the type of game we are going to work, the type of teams that are involved (it will matter if the coaches are veterans) and who are partner will be (three person crew). It would also depend on how many varsity games this official has worked. I would also want someone that is teachable. If you are going to work with me when I have the opportunity to pick the officials, a newer official has to be someone that is willing to learn. If they are not willing to learn or have a certain attitude about being given advice, I likely will not assign you to a game with me. I want a teammate, not someone that is out there for themselves.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by lmeadski
in your esteemed opinion, when is a newer official deemed ready to ref varsity?

I don't think there's anyone thing or even a specific list per se. But here are a few things.

The ability to slow down, see the whole play and maintain control- Inexperienced officials are in a great, big hurry. Too quick to whistle, too quick to signal, too quick in reporting. It's not necessary to make every call like the call determines the fate of the world. The ability to slow down demonstrates confidence and control.

Staying away from game interuptors- I see more interuptors in one JV game than I do in 5 varsity games. A2 steps inot the lane a split second early on a made FT. A 3 second call when the dribbler is stalling at the division line. Needless whistles.

"On the floor!"- This kind of goes back to slowing down and letting the play develop and recognizing when continuous motion begins. All to often, I see a player drive, pickup the dribble on his way to the whole, only to have the whistle blown and the official yell, "On the floor!" First, recognize that the try has started. Second, allow the play to develop so that the shooter who has gained an advantage doesn't have that advantage taken away by a foul.

BTW, you'll learn more after moving to varsity than you learned in all your other games combined. Working with veterans will teach you the finer points of the game and make you think about things you never considered before.

Be patient and good luck!

[lmeadski]

I meant it to be loaded. That way, I feel you all have an open invite to truly speak your mind on the issue.

[lmeadski]

The lady who got me interested in reffing is well known here in Michigan. She has given me similar advice: slow down, do your homework, work on your technique, dress the part, observe other officials, ask questions and listen, etc. She has done many Michigan state finals in, I believe, 4 different sports. I know I can't jump up to Varsity in my first year. I do all JV and some Jr High games. In Michigan, the girls season (fall) does not overlap with the boys (winter). I had a number of girls games, and, just love the boys games (more speed, more intensity, bigger crowds, rowdier fans...). I am EAGERLY awaiting "the call up", though (I know, have patience...). Having coached for 13 years, this has been a change. But, I'm diggin it. I love this forum too. Great learning tool.

[refnrev]

chrs_schuster,
You started this thread with a question. Here's an answer. The bottom line is this: If you want their advice ask for it, but be willing to listen to what they say. If you don't want their input, don't ask because most will take you seriously and give you their feedback. Remember if you think fellow officials are hard on you, try coaches and a gym full of fans when you really screw something up.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by lmeadski
The lady who got me interested in reffing is well known here in Michigan.

Is this lady someone we know here?

Also, are you female? I always welcome other women on this board. There aren't very many of us.

[chrs_schuster]

Whats with the little bit of attitude REFNREV! Read my posts again slick! Im not the one asking for evaluation forms and saying dont tell me anything. My post says that I am willing to listen and am asking questions myself. I was just stating my observation of a few varsity officials who think there the next to ref a Lebron James game and try to impress me by there knowledge of the game. Which may be in fact great, BUT...if I dont ask for help"which is rare" I shouldnt be subjected to there smug attitude. By the way I have NEVER said a disrespectful word to a varsity official! I grin and bare it, just like all the rest of the rookies. The only place that I can voice these concerns is HERE!!......where nobody knows me!!!!!!!!!