Correactable error

[KenThree]

Last night in HS game, we had a player from Team A have the ball knocked away on the dribble by Team B. As A1 and B1 went for the ball, A1 fouled B1. Incorrectly, we awarded B1 the bonus. (Wait for a minute and I'll explain)

B1 made both free throws with 6.5 seconds left in the first half. Team A inbounded, dribbled the length of the floor and made a mid-range jumper. Horn sounded after ball fell through net but before Team B touched ball. The ball maybe bounced once on the floor before the horn.

During halftime, we agreed that we should not have awarded shots under the new team control rule. We made a regrettable mistake. But now after agreeing with my partners that we screwed up, I suggest that we still MIGHT be in the correctable error situation.

The discussion point seems to be:

1) if Team B had not had the ball at its disposal for the throw-in after the buzzer-beater, we could have corrected by disallowing the two Team B free throws, allowing the Team A buzzer-beater and starting the second half with the AP arrow in the direction it was pointing.

2) if Team B was judged to have had the ball at its disposal, we just simply were too late to correct and start the second half with AP arrow in the direction it was pointing.

Thoughts?

[zebraman]

LOL. As if correctable errors weren't complicated enough, now we have the end of a half to make it even more complicated. We might need to get the supreme court involved in this one.

Technically, I think you have it spelled out pretty much correct. It was a team control foul. Unmerited free throws were awarded.

If team B didn't touch the ball, you are still within the "correction period."

If we're going to fix it, how about if I stand over here opposite of tableside while you go explain it to everyone. Call me over when you need me to tell coach B that he is seatbelted for the rest of the game.

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Dec 9th, 2005 at 11:29 AM]

[KenThree]

I know what you mean. Since only three people in gym who knew what had happened were wearing striped shirts, we agreed that ball was at disposal of Team B.

Would have been very interesting to come back on the floor at the break, take away 2 points from the team that was trailing at halftime and tell the coach that the last-second basket was going to stand.

We survived and learned.

[blindzebra]

"Horn sounded after ball fell through net but before Team B touched ball. The ball maybe bounced once on the floor before the horn."

So you know you screwed up a rule, so your way of fixing it was to knowingly screw up another?

[KenThree]

I don't believe we knowingly screwed up another rule. Our way of moving forward was to discuss whether the ball was at the disposal of the thrower or not, the old lead/new trail said it was and we went from there.

The viewpoint of "maybe once" comes from me, the T. My L said that Team B had a chance to in-bound (time left is not an element here) so we were past the point of correcting.

We "debated" long and hard on the disposal point during halftime.

As we concluded this morning in our review, we learned from the mistake and hope that it doesn't happen again.

If in your opinion, we kicked it twice, then we kicked it twice. I can live with the criticism.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by KenThree
I don't believe we knowingly screwed up another rule. Our way of moving forward was to discuss whether the ball was at the disposal of the thrower or not, the old lead/new trail said it was and we went from there.

The viewpoint of "maybe once" comes from me, the T. My L said that Team B had a chance to in-bound (time left is not an element here) so we were past the point of correcting.

We "debated" long and hard on the disposal point during halftime.

As we concluded this morning in our review, we learned from the mistake and hope that it doesn't happen again.

If in your opinion, we kicked it twice, then we kicked it twice. I can live with the criticism.

This is called rationalization.

You said the ball was not at the disposal, now you say new lead said it was, after a long halftime debate.

Which is it?

I say, your crew took the easy way out.

You miss the TC rule, shoot unmerited FTs, don't fix a correctable error, because...and I quote..."Since only three people in gym who knew what had happened were wearing striped shirts, we agreed that ball was at disposal of Team B."

I'd say you kicked it more than 2 times.

[jbduke]

Originally posted by blindzebra
"Horn sounded after ball fell through net but before Team B touched ball. The ball maybe bounced once on the floor before the horn."

So you know you screwed up a rule, so your way of fixing it was to knowingly screw up another?

So you know another official missed a rule; and your way of helping that official not to repeat the same mistake was to use mocking sarcasm?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by jbduke

So you know another official missed a rule; and your way of helping that official not to repeat the same mistake was to use mocking sarcasm?

There is a big difference between missing a rule or kicking a call and this:

"Since only three people in gym who knew what had happened were wearing striped shirts, we agreed that ball was at disposal of Team B."

That is cowardly and unethical.

[KenThree]

You're right. I posted here so I could rationalize and get called "cowardly and unethical". That's way over the line.

I guess I was hopeful that I would discuss a situation that we know we got wrong, point out how we got ourselves in deeper trouble and how we handled it. There's no beaming sence of pride in any of that.

As a crew, we came together, discussed what happened and moved on. Maybe you don't turn to your partners for help.

The old Lead, who was also the R, said the ball was at their disposal; I disagreed in the conversation, but had no clear knowledge that it wasn't at their disposal. We made a decision and moved on.

You live, you learn. Appreciate your kind words though.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by KenThree
You're right. I posted here so I could rationalize and get called "cowardly and unethical". That's way over the line.

I guess I was hopeful that I would discuss a situation that we know we got wrong, point out how we got ourselves in deeper trouble and how we handled it. There's no beaming sence of pride in any of that.

As a crew, we came together, discussed what happened and moved on. Maybe you don't turn to your partners for help.

The old Lead, who was also the R, said the ball was at their disposal; I disagreed in the conversation, but had no clear knowledge that it wasn't at their disposal. We made a decision and moved on.

You live, you learn. Appreciate your kind words though.

Nope when I get with my partners we do the right thing, we don't sweep it under the rug.

IMO, none of you were as concerned about fixing it as you were not owning up to the mistakes.

You really want to live and learn?

Send a detailed report to your assignor and a letter to both schools.

[Dan_ref]

Kenthree, don't take BZ too seriously.

He gets this way when his diaper needs changing.

Thanks for the post, something to think about. I'm pretty sure I would have found a way for the crew to agree that the ball was at the disposal like you guys did. I guess we're all just a bunch of unethical cowards.

:shrug:

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Kenthree, don't take BZ too seriously.

He gets this way when his diaper needs changing.

Thanks for the post, something to think about. I'm pretty sure I would have found a way for the crew to agree that the ball was at the disposal like you guys did. I guess we're all just a bunch of unethical cowards.

:shrug:

And you'd be correct for once.

[KenThree]

You'll be happy to know that we weren't afraid to tell the assignor and discuss with the state association this morning.

Enough.

[zebraman]

Put me on the list of unethical cowards too.

Z

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by zebraman
Put me on the list of unethical cowards too.

Z

Me too. I ain't ready to be hung on a cross yet. I make mistakes too.