Team Control Foul

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by malloy
A1 is at the free throw line with ball in hand for a 2 shot foul . A2 pushes B2 who both behind the free throw line extended while the ball is still in A1's hand. A2 is called for the foul which is a team control foul. How would you handle this situation or apply it? Thanks.

[Edited by malloy on Nov 6th, 2005 at 09:38 AM]

Wouldn't this be an unsportsmanlike foul? In FIBA it would have to be called as an unsportsmanlike foul as there is no way that you could argue that A2 was contesting the ball.

Therefor, the 2 free throws for A1 are cancelled by the 2 free throws for B2. Team B resumes at the half-way line for the unsportsmanlike.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
Wouldn't this be an unsportsmanlike foul? In FIBA it would have to be called as an unsportsmanlike foul as there is no way that you could argue that A2 was contesting the ball.

Interesting, Duane. But in NFHS rules, unsportsmanlike fouls are by definition non-contact. So this would not be an unsportsmanlike foul. If we used your line of thought -- namely, that the foul could not be a "basketball play", since the ball is not in play -- we could call it an intentional personal foul. I'd like to be around to see somebody call it that way, tho!! And if it were called that way, it's NOT a team control foul, since it's not a common foul.

Therefore, the 2 free throws for A1 are cancelled by the 2 free throws for B2. Team B resumes at the half-way line for the unsportsmanlike.

Again, that's interesting and I can see why you'd do it that way, but that's not how it would be administered in NFHS rules. Unless the fouls happen at the same time (generally speaking), we penalize each foul in the order in which it occurs. So we would still shoot A1's FTs with no one on the line, then give the player from Team B 2 FTs for the intentional foul. Then Team B would get the ball for a throw-in at a spot closest to Team A's foul.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

As Mr. Grammar Guy, I have to remind you that's not a question. Did you mean "Shut up, eh?"

It's actually, "Shut up, eh, ya hoser?"

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy

It's actually, "Shut up, eh, ya hoser?"

Good day eh

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Good day eh

You're on an SCTV kick tonight, huh? Never one of my faves. Don't know why. I know they're supposed to be. I liked Bob and Doug, but that's it. "Strange Brew" was just about my speed in high school. That tells you all you need to know about my pathetic personality.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
[/B]

You're on an SCTV kick tonight, huh? Never one of my faves. Don't know why. [/B][/QUOTE]I do.



Hope that helps.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

You're on an SCTV kick tonight, huh? Never one of my faves. Don't know why. I know they're supposed to be. I liked Bob and Doug, but that's it. "Strange Brew" was just about my speed in high school. That tells you all you need to know about my pathetic personality.

Chuck -- It's just barely possible that you're not the one with the pathetic personality!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Oz Referee

Wouldn't this be an unsportsmanlike foul? In FIBA it would have to be called as an unsportsmanlike foul as there is no way that you could argue that A2 was contesting the ball.

Therefor, the 2 free throws for A1 are cancelled by the 2 free throws for B2. Team B resumes at the half-way line for the unsportsmanlike.

Hmmm... Is this FIBA being idiotic again?

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

No, I wasn't sure. And what did I say in that thread? "...we'll just have to wait and see what they publish."

Evenso, 4-12 doesn't specifically address FTs. But all the interps I've seen at clinics say that you treated FTs as a team control situation.

Well, imo the interps are correct. The definition of team control hasn't changed at all. A player is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds during a FT prior to the release. That equals player control and player control = team control, other than an airborne shooter.

The important thing is that you are sure today!

[NICK]

If I was doing this game by Fiba rules, there is no team control, as the ball is dead. Holding the ball for free throws does not constitute Team Control. The call on A2 would be unsportsmanlike foul with 2 shots to B2 and possession at halfway for team B. We carry on with the shots by A1 with no one lined up on the lane followed by the unsportsmanlike penalty on A2.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Hmmm... Is this FIBA being idiotic again?

Nah, it's just FIBA being FIBA.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by NICK
If I was doing this game by Fiba rules, there is no team control, as the ball is dead.

The ball is dead while the free thrower is holding the ball? When does the ball become live during a FT, then? When it's released for goal? Just curious.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

The ball is dead while the free thrower is holding the ball? When does the ball become live during a FT, then? When it's released for goal? Just curious.

Well whaddya know? I just looked this up and I was wrong (but so was Nick )

According to the rule book:

10.2 The ball becomes live when:
• During the jump ball, the ball is legally tapped by a jumper.
• During a free throw, the ball is at the disposal of the free-throw shooter.
• During a throw-in, the ball is at the disposal of a player for the throw-in.

So FIBA agrees with NFHS. In this sitch the free-throws would not cancel each other out.

[Edited by Oz Referee on Nov 7th, 2005 at 04:08 PM]

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Interesting, Duane. But in NFHS rules, unsportsmanlike fouls are by definition non-contact. So this would not be an unsportsmanlike foul. If we used your line of thought -- namely, that the foul could not be a "basketball play", since the ball is not in play -- we could call it an intentional personal foul. I'd like to be around to see somebody call it that way, tho!! And if it were called that way, it's NOT a team control foul, since it's not a common foul.

Hmm, so Chuck, surely this SHOULD be called an intentional foul? If so, why wouldn't refs call it this way?

OK, so other than personal fouls, what types of fouls do you guys have? We have three:

Technical fouls - for any non-contact infraction of the rules. Penalty is 2 free throws and possession at the halfway line. Two technical fouls on the one player (or coach) is an automatic ejection.

Unsportsmanlike fouls - used to be called Intentional Fouls, but the name was changed as it is impossible for an observer to know someone else's intent only the end result of their actions. So, unsportsmanlike fouls situations where there is no attempt ot play at the ball, or there is excessive contact in an attempt to play the ball.

Disqualifying fouls - for flagrant unsportsmanlike behaviour, including fighting, attempting to strike, leaving the bench in a fight, etc

What are the equivalent fouls in NFHS?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
Technical fouls - for any non-contact infraction of the rules. Penalty is 2 free throws and possession at the halfway line. Two technical fouls on the one player (or coach) is an automatic ejection.

Same for NFHS, except that it is also a technical foul for dead ball contact, if intentional or flagrant.

Unsportsmanlike fouls - used to be called Intentional Fouls. So, unsportsmanlike fouls situations where there is no attempt ot play at the ball, or there is excessive contact in an attempt to play the ball.

That is almost exactly what we still call an intentional personal foul.

Disqualifying fouls - for flagrant unsportsmanlike behaviour

We call these flagrant fouls. They can be personal or technical.