Shoulder Push

[Smitty]

You may be right in that we all agree, it's just our semantics that are different. I would suggest that you really try and use the same terms to describe yourself as everytone else does. You may really think that the terms "subjective" and "severity" make sense for you, but clearly the vast majority of people here use other terms, consistently. In order to communicate successfully, you have to speak the vocabulary of the people you're communicating with.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Smitty
You may be right in that we all agree, it's just our semantics that are different. I would suggest that you really try and use the same terms to describe yourself as everytone else does. You may really think that the terms "subjective" and "severity" make sense for you, but clearly the vast majority of people here use other terms, consistently. In order to communicate successfully, you have to speak the vocabulary of the people you're communicating with.

AGREED...Thanks for your help.

[Smitty]

You're welcome. One other thing. Everyone here started out as a new official once and fought through the same issues as you do. It took me years to understand the concept of advantage/disadvantage. Back in the day I was starting out, I didn't have the internet to get great advice like this site offers. All I had was the book and the other refs in my association, who sometimes gave me conflicting information. I had to figure it all out on my own. It took years. You now have all these great tools to help you become better faster. This site is outstanding for clarifying those details that are fuzzy in the book. You still may find that even the most experienced guys disagree, but you end up with so much more information to come to your own conclusions.

I think it's safe to say that most basketball officials were basketball players before we started to officiate the game. I never realized how little I knew about the rules until I started reffing. It's great that you have the mindset of a player, but you have to look at situations from a different perspective now. It sounds like you have a grasp of advantage/disadvantage. Just be open to constructive criticism and don't take things so personally here. If everyone left this site because someone else pissed them off, there would be no one left. The pissing contests are half the fun...

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Smitty
You're welcome. One other thing. Everyone here started out as a new official once and fought through the same issues as you do. It took me years to understand the concept of advantage/disadvantage. Back in the day I was starting out, I didn't have the internet to get great advice like this site offers. All I had was the book and the other refs in my association, who sometimes gave me conflicting information. I had to figure it all out on my own. It took years. You now have all these great tools to help you become better faster. This site is outstanding for clarifying those details that are fuzzy in the book. You still may find that even the most experienced guys disagree, but you end up with so much more information to come to your own conclusions.

I think it's safe to say that most basketball officials were basketball players before we started to officiate the game. I never realized how little I knew about the rules until I started reffing. It's great that you have the mindset of a player, but you have to look at situations from a different perspective now. It sounds like you have a grasp of advantage/disadvantage. Just be open to constructive criticism and don't take things so personally here. If everyone left this site because someone else pissed them off, there would be no one left. The pissing contests are half the fun...

Thanks again for your help. The only thing I have to say about the "pissing contests," is this: it's fun trying to prove your point, no doubt about it. But doing it in the correct way is FUN. Degrading someone for not sharing your belief...especially without trying to explain yourself ..is just wrong. Telling someone they may not be cut out for a certain job just b/c they dont see things the way you do, isnt right. Maybe I shoulda seen the light 12 posts ago, but I didn't and what some people need to realize is that they dont always explain things in a way in which others understand. Sometimes it takes several attempts. AGREE??

[Smitty]

I'm not sure I agree. In a forum like this you deal with all kinds of people from all different backgrounds. I don't think anyone was trying to insult you to the degree you took it. In fact, at the time I agreed that maybe you were biting off more than you could chew. You have to let that stuff roll off your back. Seriously Nate, if you can't handle a question of your integrity from complete strangers on an internet site, how will you do under the fire of a loudmouthed coach at the varsity level? Filter out the nonsense and only worry about the stuff that is important. Keep in mind that for all the things you accused others of, you were being very argumentative yourself. Officiating is not a job for the timid. You have to have a very thick skin and a very long fuse. Work on these aspects of your personality as well. I was the same as you once - I used to always think the experienced guys were picking on me. It wasn't until much later that I realized they were only trying to help me.

[Edited by Smitty on Oct 28th, 2005 at 11:17 AM]

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Smitty
I'm not sure I agree. In a forum like this you deal with all kinds of people from all different backgrounds. I don't think anyone was trying to unsult you to the degree you took it. In fact, at the time I agreed that maybe you were biting off more than you could chew. You have to let that stuff roll off your back. Seriously Nate, if you can't handle a question of your integrity from complete strangers on an internet site, how will you do under the fire of a loudmouthed coach at the varsity level? Filter out the nonsense and only worry about the stuff that is important. Keep in mind that for all the things you accused others of, you were being very argumentative yourself. Officiating is not a job for the timid. You have to have a very thick skin and a very long fuse. Work on these aspects of your personality as well. I was the same as you once - I used to always think the experienced guys were picking on me. It wasn't until much later that I realized they were only trying to help me.

Understood. I believe that I do have thick skin. It just shocked me for a fellow official, who has been in my shoes to come across that way. Just took me by suprise. I thought we were here to help, not cast judgement upon.

[SeanFitzRef]

Originally posted by Smitty
Situations described like this are only meant to create controversy. It's impossible to say without question how you'd call this play without actually seeing it happen. And 5 different people that saw it from 5 different angles all might see it differently. Chances are, if the dribbler got past the defender and had a clear lane to the basket, I'd pass on the contact because there was no disavantage to the dribbler. It just depends on so many factors.

Nah, Smitty, I was just trying to spark some conversation in a positive light, and let Nate see that we can use this for positive discussion. No controversy intended. That situation was presented to me in case-book form by one of my mentors, trying to teach me how to use my JUDGEMENT when making a split second decision. I thought it was pertinent to the discussion.

His point to me was that 'ultimately teams want to score points'. He mentioned that the contact couldn't have been severe enough if A1 drove past for a layup, so hold the whistle and give a verbal warning to "watch the hands".