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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 09:42am
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Ok, next set of questions.

#1) During the opening jump ball, A1 catches the tossed ball. Official blows the whistle and awards the ball to team B As soon as the ball is touched inbounds the scorer sets the poss. arrow in the direction of team A's basket. Is the official correct? The key says "yes", but isn't the arrow set when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder?

#2) A1, from behind the 3-point arc attempts a diangonal pass to A2 in the corner. B1 deflects the pass which enters the basket. Official awards team A 3 points. Is the official correct? I think that by a strict reading of 5-2-1, the answer is yes. We've had this conversation before, but what do you all think?

#3) B1 in the 2-point area, passes the ball toward the basket for an alley-oop to B2. A1 leaps and touches the ball while it is on its downward flight, above the ring level, outside the cylinder and in the judgment of the official has a chance of entering the basket. Official rules GT and counts the basket. Is the official correct? The key says yes, but the play is a pass. We absolutely cannot have GT without a try, right?
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 10:07am
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Originally posted by ChuckElias
Ok, next set of questions.

#1) During the opening jump ball, A1 catches the tossed ball. Official blows the whistle and awards the ball to team B As soon as the ball is touched inbounds the scorer sets the poss. arrow in the direction of team A's basket. Is the official correct? The key says "yes", but isn't the arrow set when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder?

#2) A1, from behind the 3-point arc attempts a diangonal pass to A2 in the corner. B1 deflects the pass which enters the basket. Official awards team A 3 points. Is the official correct? I think that by a strict reading of 5-2-1, the answer is yes. We've had this conversation before, but what do you all think?

#3) B1 in the 2-point area, passes the ball toward the basket for an alley-oop to B2. A1 leaps and touches the ball while it is on its downward flight, above the ring level, outside the cylinder and in the judgment of the official has a chance of entering the basket. Official rules GT and counts the basket. Is the official correct? The key says yes, but the play is a pass. We absolutely cannot have GT without a try, right?
1)The arrow is only set when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder if the violation on the opening jump occurred before a player gained control-as per R4-3-3(a). In this case, the violation and player control were simultaneous. That means that it now becomes an AP violation and R6-4-4 becomes the applicable rule. Iow, the correct answer is "yes".

2)I'd say yes too. Case book play 5.2.1SitC(a&b) is the same play and also uses the language "throws the ball".

3)Gotta agree with you on this one. The goaltending definition- R4-22- sez it applies to field goal tries or taps. It doesn't mention passes.
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 10:28am
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#1)I think the arrow is reversed after the throw in ends, not when it's at the disposal of the thrower. For example, team A has an AP throw-in. A1 pushes B1 while A2 is holding the ball for a throw in. The arrow is not changed..A retains the next AP throw-in(6.3.5).

#3)5.2.1 B has the situation where the alley oop pass is thrown and goes in the basket. "A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal. I think logic would dictate (OK, I know I'm on thin ice here) that you would have to consider the pass (above the rim, downward flight, chance to go in) as a try, and call goaltending. I guess the logic would extend to, if an OFFENSIVE player touched it, would you call offensive goaltending?
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 10:36am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
1)The arrow is only set when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder if the violation on the opening jump occurred before a player gained control-as per R4-3-3(a). In this case, the violation and player control were simultaneous.

But wasn't this the point of changing the interpretation a few years ago. If the ball was caught by a jumper, we used to give the ball and the arrow to the other team b/c control came before the violation. Now, in essence, we're saying that the jumper never had control of the ball before the violation. So wouldn't that also apply to my test question?

Quote:
That means that it now becomes an AP violation and R6-4-4 becomes the applicable rule. Iow, the correct answer is "yes".
I'm honestly not acting dumb, but what does the underlined part mean? How can it be an AP violation when the AP procedure has not yet been established?
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 11:45am
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Originally posted by ChuckElias

#2) A1, from behind the 3-point arc attempts a diangonal pass to A2 in the corner. B1 deflects the pass which enters the basket. Official awards team A 3 points. Is the official correct? I think that by a strict reading of 5-2-1, the answer is yes. We've had this conversation before, but what do you all think?
I say no. The purpose and intent of that rule (perhaps poorly written) is solely to remove the judgement of whether a thrown ball is a try or not.

In this case, it is most clearly NOT thrown anywhere near the basket.

The original thrown ball must have remote chance of going in (unassisted) before this rule should apply.
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 12:00pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias

#2) A1, from behind the 3-point arc attempts a diangonal pass to A2 in the corner. B1 deflects the pass which enters the basket. Official awards team A 3 points. Is the official correct? I think that by a strict reading of 5-2-1, the answer is yes. We've had this conversation before, but what do you all think?
I say no. The purpose and intent of that rule (perhaps poorly written) is solely to remove the judgement of whether a thrown ball is a try or not.

In this case, it is most clearly NOT thrown anywhere near the basket.

The original thrown ball must have remote chance of going in (unassisted) before this rule should apply.
I would have to disagree because of the casebook play 5.2.1(c)(b). It says A1 throws the ball from behind the 3-pt. line (not passed or shot, just thrown), is legally touched by B1 who is in the 2-pt. area, and goes through the basket. Three points are scored because of the legal touching was by the defense, and the ball was thrown from behind the 3-pt. line. Like you said, the rule was written to remove the judgement from the play - whether it was a shot or a pass, and likewise, whether the original throw had a chance to go in or not.
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 12:47pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
#3) B1 in the 2-point area, passes the ball toward the basket for an alley-oop to B2. A1 leaps and touches the ball while it is on its downward flight, above the ring level, outside the cylinder and in the judgment of the official has a chance of entering the basket. Official rules GT and counts the basket. Is the official correct? The key says yes, but the play is a pass. We absolutely cannot have GT without a try, right? [/B]
I'm not too worried about this one. Don't see a lot of this in 6th grade girls!
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 01:05pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias

#2) A1, from behind the 3-point arc attempts a diangonal pass to A2 in the corner. B1 deflects the pass which enters the basket. Official awards team A 3 points. Is the official correct? I think that by a strict reading of 5-2-1, the answer is yes. We've had this conversation before, but what do you all think?
I say no. The purpose and intent of that rule (perhaps poorly written) is solely to remove the judgement of whether a thrown ball is a try or not.

In this case, it is most clearly NOT thrown anywhere near the basket.

The original thrown ball must have remote chance of going in (unassisted) before this rule should apply.
I would have to disagree because of the casebook play 5.2.1(c)(b). It says A1 throws the ball from behind the 3-pt. line (not passed or shot, just thrown), is legally touched by B1 who is in the 2-pt. area, and goes through the basket. Three points are scored because of the legal touching was by the defense, and the ball was thrown from behind the 3-pt. line. Like you said, the rule was written to remove the judgement from the play - whether it was a shot or a pass, and likewise, whether the original throw had a chance to go in or not.
The case play you mention is talking about a ball thrown toward the basket that is tipped by B1 in an attempt to block what may be a shot. The fact that B1 touches the ball from within the 2-point area doesn't change the nature of the ball thrown by A1. If it imparts and entirely new direction to a ball that is not thrown towards the basket, this case is not relevant.
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 01:52pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias

#2) A1, from behind the 3-point arc attempts a diangonal pass to A2 in the corner. B1 deflects the pass which enters the basket. Official awards team A 3 points. Is the official correct? I think that by a strict reading of 5-2-1, the answer is yes. We've had this conversation before, but what do you all think?
I say no. The purpose and intent of that rule (perhaps poorly written) is solely to remove the judgement of whether a thrown ball is a try or not.

In this case, it is most clearly NOT thrown anywhere near the basket.

The original thrown ball must have remote chance of going in (unassisted) before this rule should apply.
I would have to disagree because of the casebook play 5.2.1(c)(b). It says A1 throws the ball from behind the 3-pt. line (not passed or shot, just thrown), is legally touched by B1 who is in the 2-pt. area, and goes through the basket. Three points are scored because of the legal touching was by the defense, and the ball was thrown from behind the 3-pt. line. Like you said, the rule was written to remove the judgement from the play - whether it was a shot or a pass, and likewise, whether the original throw had a chance to go in or not.
The case play you mention is talking about a ball thrown toward the basket that is tipped by B1 in an attempt to block what may be a shot. The fact that B1 touches the ball from within the 2-point area doesn't change the nature of the ball thrown by A1. If it imparts and entirely new direction to a ball that is not thrown towards the basket, this case is not relevant.
But it does not say towards the basket in the case play. It also specifically says thrown ball instead of the terms tap or try.

Look at it this way - say a player is at half court and is saving the ball from a backcourt violation. He heaves the ball back over his head, and it happens to go in his team's basket. We all know it's not a shot (try), but if the ball goes in it's still 3 points. This rule only has to do with scoring. We only have to determine pass or shot when it involves fouls, free throws, airborne shooters, etc. For example, if either of our players is fouled (A1 in the original example, or the guy that just saved the backcourt violation), and we know it's a pass instead of a try, the ball would be dead immediately and the basket would not count, because the player is not a shooter. So, like you said, this rule and interp was set up to take the judgement out of the scoring - we don't have to judge whether the player was shooting or passing. All we need to know is the ball left the offensive player's hand outside the 3-point line, and no other offensive player touched it inside the 3-point line.
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 02:12pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias

#2) A1, from behind the 3-point arc attempts a diangonal pass to A2 in the corner. B1 deflects the pass which enters the basket. Official awards team A 3 points. Is the official correct? I think that by a strict reading of 5-2-1, the answer is yes. We've had this conversation before, but what do you all think?
I say no. The purpose and intent of that rule (perhaps poorly written) is solely to remove the judgement of whether a thrown ball is a try or not.

In this case, it is most clearly NOT thrown anywhere near the basket.

The original thrown ball must have remote chance of going in (unassisted) before this rule should apply.
Camron, are you saying that the offensive player has to be attempting a try or tap before this rule applies? That's basically the same as saying that it has to have a remote chance to in, isn't it?

That doesn't gibe with the language of rule 5-2-1. The FED added "thrown ball" to the language of this rule when they changed the rule back in 2001-02. There's no restrictions anywhere that I know of that sez you have to throw the ball in any particular direction before this rule applies.

When the FED put in this language back in 2001-02, they put the following explanation in the back of the rule book under "COMMENTS ON THE 2001-02 RULES REVISIONS"-- "Three points shall be awarded for any ball thrown, passed or shot from beyond the three-point arc that passes through a team's own basket. While in most situations a "try" can be differentiated from a pass, to eliminate possible confusion this change should help to clarify by NOT requiring judgement as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or a try".

By saying that the ball must have a remote chance of going in for this rule to apply, you're trying to put judgement back into a call that the FED sez doesn't require any judgement.
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 02:37pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Ok, next set of questions.

#1) During the opening jump ball, A1 catches the tossed ball. Official blows the whistle and awards the ball to team B As soon as the ball is touched inbounds the scorer sets the poss. arrow in the direction of team A's basket. Is the official correct? The key says "yes", but isn't the arrow set when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder?

1)The arrow is only set when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder if the violation on the opening jump occurred before a player gained control-as per R4-3-3(a). In this case, the violation and player control were simultaneous. That means that it now becomes an AP violation and R6-4-4 becomes the applicable rule. Iow, the correct answer is "yes".
The violation & player control can't be ruled simultaneous because 4-12-1 says "there is no player control when, during a jump ball, a jumper catches the ball prior to the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper."
In the 2002 - 2003 rulebook, (the year this rule was changed) - see 6.3.1, situations C & E -- sit C has Chuck's test question (in the current book, it's 6.4.1sitC); and the ruling in situation E is that, when the ball is in the possession of the thrower of team B, team B has gained control (worded poorly IMO) for purposes of establishing the AP procedure, and the arrow is immediately pointed in the direction of A's basket.
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 02:53pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Camron, are you saying that the offensive player has to be attempting a try or tap before this rule applies? That's basically the same as saying that it has to have a remote chance to in, isn't it?

That doesn't gibe with the language of rule 5-2-1. The FED added "thrown ball" to the language of this rule when they changed the rule back in 2001-02. There's no restrictions anywhere that I know of that sez you have to throw the ball in any particular direction before this rule applies.

When the FED put in this language back in 2001-02, they put the following explanation in the back of the rule book under "COMMENTS ON THE 2001-02 RULES REVISIONS"-- "Three points shall be awarded for any ball thrown, passed or shot from beyond the three-point arc that passes through a team's own basket. While in most situations a "try" can be differentiated from a pass, to eliminate possible confusion this change should help to clarify by NOT requiring judgement as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or a try".

By saying that the ball must have a remote chance of going in for this rule to apply, you're trying to put judgement back into a call that the FED sez doesn't require any judgement.
JR,

First I'll start by saying that I agree with you. Now, a sitch in which Cameron would have an argument, but NFHS takes care of in the above rule explination.

A1 has the ball outside the arc top of the key, lobs a pass towards half court to A2 who is being guarded by B2. B2 steps in front of the pass and deflects it towards the basket and it goes in. We have three points awarded to A1 here even though this was clearly not a try. NFHS takes that part of the decision process completely out of the equation for us, if the ball goes through the ring all we have to decide is did it originate from in or outside the arc so we know wether or not to award two or three points.
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 02:56pm
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Originally posted by mdray
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Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
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Ok, next set of questions.

#1) During the opening jump ball, A1 catches the tossed ball. Official blows the whistle and awards the ball to team B As soon as the ball is touched inbounds the scorer sets the poss. arrow in the direction of team A's basket. Is the official correct? The key says "yes", but isn't the arrow set when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder?

1)The arrow is only set when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder if the violation on the opening jump occurred before a player gained control-as per R4-3-3(a). In this case, the violation and player control were simultaneous. That means that it now becomes an AP violation and R6-4-4 becomes the applicable rule. Iow, the correct answer is "yes".
The violation & player control can't be ruled simultaneous because 4-12-1 says "there is no player control when, during a jump ball, a jumper catches the ball prior to the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper."
In the 2002 - 2003 rulebook, (the year this rule was changed) - see 6.3.1, situations C & E -- sit C has Chuck's test question (in the current book, it's 6.4.1sitC); and the ruling in situation E is that, when the ball is in the possession of the thrower of team B, team B has gained control (worded poorly IMO) for purposes of establishing the AP procedure, and the arrow is immediately pointed in the direction of A's basket.
Yup, that's true. I was wrong. IAABO was wrong also- for whatever the hell that's worth. Good catch.
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 10:46pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias

#2) A1, from behind the 3-point arc attempts a diangonal pass to A2 in the corner. B1 deflects the pass which enters the basket. Official awards team A 3 points. Is the official correct? I think that by a strict reading of 5-2-1, the answer is yes. We've had this conversation before, but what do you all think?
I say no. The purpose and intent of that rule (perhaps poorly written) is solely to remove the judgement of whether a thrown ball is a try or not.

In this case, it is most clearly NOT thrown anywhere near the basket.

The original thrown ball must have remote chance of going in (unassisted) before this rule should apply.
Camron, are you saying that the offensive player has to be attempting a try or tap before this rule applies? That's basically the same as saying that it has to have a remote chance to in, isn't it?

That doesn't gibe with the language of rule 5-2-1. The FED added "thrown ball" to the language of this rule when they changed the rule back in 2001-02. There's no restrictions anywhere that I know of that sez you have to throw the ball in any particular direction before this rule applies.

When the FED put in this language back in 2001-02, they put the following explanation in the back of the rule book under "COMMENTS ON THE 2001-02 RULES REVISIONS"-- "Three points shall be awarded for any ball thrown, passed or shot from beyond the three-point arc that passes through a team's own basket. While in most situations a "try" can be differentiated from a pass, to eliminate possible confusion this change should help to clarify by NOT requiring judgement as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or a try".

By saying that the ball must have a remote chance of going in for this rule to apply, you're trying to put judgement back into a call that the FED sez doesn't require any judgement.
I'm not saying it must be a try. A try requires intent. If intent were required, we'd be back in the same boat as before.

It is, however, important to know the intent an purpose of the rule...why it was added. It was not added to cover an entry pass that is tipped up into the basket. It was not added to cover a pass around the perimeter that is swatted such that it goes in. It was added to cover a ball that was thrown toward the basket that goes in....no need to decided if it was a bad pass or a try.
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Old Fri Aug 26, 2005, 03:10am
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Originally posted by Jurassic Referee


That doesn't gibe with the language of rule 5-2-1. The FED added "thrown ball" to the language of this rule when they changed the rule back in 2001-02. There's no restrictions anywhere that I know of that sez you have to throw the ball in any particular direction before this rule applies.

When the FED put in this language back in 2001-02, they put the following explanation in the back of the rule book under "COMMENTS ON THE 2001-02 RULES REVISIONS"-- "Three points shall be awarded for any ball thrown, passed or shot from beyond the three-point arc that passes through a team's own basket. While in most situations a "try" can be differentiated from a pass, to eliminate possible confusion this change should help to clarify by NOT requiring judgement as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or a try".

By saying that the ball must have a remote chance of going in for this rule to apply, you're trying to put judgement back into a call that the FED sez doesn't require any judgement.
I'm not saying it must be a try. A try requires intent. If intent were required, we'd be back in the same boat as before.

It is, however, important to know the intent an purpose of the rule...why it was added. It was not added to cover an entry pass that is tipped up into the basket. It was not added to cover a pass around the perimeter that is swatted such that it goes in. It was added to cover a ball that was thrown toward the basket that goes in....no need to decided if it was a bad pass or a try. [/B]
The intent and purpose of the rule is exactly what the NFHS stated above in the rule book in their "COMMENTS ON THE 2001-02 RULES REVISIONS"--i.e. "while in most cases a try can be differentiated from a pass, to eliminate possible confusion this change should help to clarify by not requiring judgement as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or a try". There is no mention anywhere of any stipulation that the ball must be passed at the basket. You're adding your own words to the rule- words that can't be found in anything the FED put out regarding this rule. This change covered any ball that was "thrown, passed or shot", inclusive, as per the FED language above. They didn't add any restrictions as to how the ball must be thrown or passed. That would hardly go along with their intent to take judgement out of the call completely.

Just can't agree with you on this one.
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