Rules Myths

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by BillyMac
It's the philosophy of the largest IAABO Board in Connecticut, servicing about 117 boys and girls, high school and prep-school basketball programs throughout Hartford and Middlesex Counties with over 200 officials. We as a Board also service many middle school programs and some factions of the Board service recreation, travel, and CYO programs.

I've seen some of the Board 6 guys work before; can't say I have any complaints.

That said, Board 8 covers more territory, with more refs, but fewer schools. Is Farmington in your territory?

[BillyMac]

Note to Jurassic Referee: Your most recent post (#6906, Ed Rush) was helpful, but please note, that thanks to your previous comments and rule citations, I have already changed #10 (Carrying) on my list so that there is no reference to the position of the hand. Your most recent post (#6906, Ed Rush) further clarified this for me.

10) (Most Recent Change) Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand and the player either travels with the ball or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a playerÂ’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.

Thanks. Don't stop there. Please keep the comments coming.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by BillyMac
Note to Jurassic Referee: Your most recent post (#6906, Ed Rush) was helpful, but please note, that thanks to your previous comments and rule citations, I have already changed #10 (Carrying) on my list so that there is no reference to the position of the hand. Your most recent post (#6906, Ed Rush) further clarified this for me.

10) (Most Recent Change) Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand and the player either travels with the ball or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a playerÂ’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.

Thanks. Don't stop there. Please keep the comments coming.

"Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand and the player either travels with the ball or dribbles a second time."

How about palming is accelerating or decelerating the ball during a dribble with the palm rotated 90 degrees or more from the plane of the floor. (The ball coming to rest is actually a special case of this way of controlling the ball.)

Pure cross-overs and inside-out dribbles don't require the palm to be at 90 degrees, though few players show that kind of skill.

In the sense I am proposing here, 'palming' can be a violation even before it results in a travel or double dribble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

[/B]

How about palming is accelerating or decelerating the ball during a dribble with the palm rotated 90 degrees or more from the plane of the floor. (The ball coming to rest is actually a special case of this way of controlling the ball.)

[/B][/QUOTE]How about finding a rules citation-- anywhere--from any ruleset- that states that any of your proposed criteria are illegal? Or relevant?

The ball coming to rest in the hand is the criteria used in the RULES to determine whether palming/carrying the ball has occurred. A ball accelerating or decelerating is MOVING; it ISN'T at rest!

And the angle that the palm is at has got nuthin' to do with nuthin' either.

And exactly what violation are you proposing that we call if the player doesn't travel or dribble again after the palm? 'Splain that one to me.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 24th, 2005 at 04:10 AM]

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker


How about palming is accelerating or decelerating the ball during a dribble with the palm rotated 90 degrees or more from the plane of the floor. (The ball coming to rest is actually a special case of this way of controlling the ball.)

What does acceleration have to do with anything??

[ChrisSportsFan]

frequently stated rule myth: he's turning it over Ref, he's turning it over. Can't you see that? He's turning it over everytime!

[SeanFitzRef]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I've ignored it (or addressed it with a commetn rather than a whistle) when there wasn't an advantage.

For example -- A1 dribbling the ball near the division line. The defense is in a zone. A1 holds up one hand to call the play while the other hand moves slightly under the ball and the ball comes to rest. A1 continues the dribble.

I have witnessed this first hand and it can make for some ridiculous moments. An observer told the officials right before a game to 'be aware of and clean up' the carrying violations during a game. One official, being facetious, proceeded to call a carry on A1 - who was UNGUARDED and dribbling in the backcourt - while the defenders for B were in a zone. On the ensuing inbounds play, B1 was called for carrying at halfcourt, again while unguarded. This proceeded for the rest of the half. After getting reamed about this at halftime, the first thing the official said was "Yabut, that is what you (the observer) said to do."

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef
I have witnessed this first hand and it can make for some ridiculous moments. An observer told the officials right before a game to 'be aware of and clean up' the carrying violations during a game. One official, being facetious, proceeded to call a carry on A1 - who was UNGUARDED and dribbling in the backcourt - while the defenders for B were in a zone. On the ensuing inbounds play, B1 was called for carrying at halfcourt, again while unguarded. This proceeded for the rest of the half. After getting reamed about this at halftime, the first thing the official said was "Yabut, that is what you (the observer) said to do."

Witnessed? I've done it! I don't understand why trainers and clinicians use "lingo" without checking to see if people understand it. When a clinician says, "Clean it up" I know I've heard that before, so I crack down and call more things. If they don't want these meaningless carries called, they need to find different language to use. Knowing what not to call comes with experience, and if that experience doesn't show on the floor, it's probably safe for the clincician to assume it's not there. So back up and use real language to communicate a real idea in a way that the ref can understand.

That's enough ranting for one day.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

How about palming is accelerating or decelerating the ball during a dribble with the palm rotated 90 degrees or more from the plane of the floor. (The ball coming to rest is actually a special case of this way of controlling the ball.)

[/B]

How about finding a rules citation-- anywhere--from any ruleset- that states that any of your proposed criteria are illegal? Or relevant?

The ball coming to rest in the hand is the criteria used in the RULES to determine whether palming/carrying the ball has occurred. A ball accelerating or decelerating is MOVING; it ISN'T at rest!

And the angle that the palm is at has got nuthin' to do with nuthin' either.

And exactly what violation are you proposing that we call if the player doesn't travel or dribble again after the palm? 'Splain that one to me.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 24th, 2005 at 04:10 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]

You're being purposefully obtuse, in my view. I'm not going to explain the subtlties of physics, or orders of operation. It's a suggestion as to how to deeper understand what the simple (minded) rules don't get at.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

How about finding a rules citation-- anywhere--from any ruleset- that states that any of your proposed criteria are illegal? Or relevant?

The ball coming to rest in the hand is the criteria used in the RULES to determine whether palming/carrying the ball has occurred. A ball accelerating or decelerating is MOVING; it ISN'T at rest!

And the angle that the palm is at has got nuthin' to do with nuthin' either.

And exactly what violation are you proposing that we call if the player doesn't travel or dribble again after the palm? 'Splain that one to me.

[/B]

You're being purposefully obtuse, in my view. I'm not going to explain the subtlties of physics, or orders of operation. It's a suggestion as to how to deeper understand what the simple (minded) rules don't get at. [/B][/QUOTE]Gasp! You're not gonna explain the physics of how a ball that must be at rest to be a called a palm (by rules definition) can also be accelerating or decelerating at the exact same time that it's completely still? Aw, c'mon...that would certainly be......entertaining.

In lieu of that, then maybe instead you can try finding a subtle rules citation somewhere that will back up your...uh... theories of relativity.

I'm also still waiting for an explanation on the violation you said you are going to call if the dribbler doesn't travel or dribble again after the palm occurred. Subtly explain the orders of operation on that one to me also, along with an accompanying relevant rules citation.

Show me the way to deeper understanding! Please!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

You're being purposefully obtuse, in my view. I'm not going to explain the subtlties of physics, or orders of operation. It's a suggestion as to how to deeper understand what the simple (minded) rules don't get at. [/B]

Gasp! You're not gonna explain the physics of how a ball that must be at rest to be a called a palm (by rules definition) can also be accelerating or decelerating at the exact same time that it's completely still? Aw, c'mon...that would certainly be......entertaining.

In lieu of that, then maybe instead you can try finding a subtle rules citation somewhere that will back up your...uh... theories of relativity.

I'm also still waiting for an explanation on the violation you said you are going to call if the dribbler doesn't travel or dribble again after the palm occurred. Subtly explain the orders of operation on that one to me also, along with an accompanying relevant rules citation.

Show me the way to deeper understanding! Please! [/B][/QUOTE]

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

You're being purposefully obtuse, in my view. I'm not going to explain the subtlties of physics, or orders of operation. It's a suggestion as to how to deeper understand what the simple (minded) rules don't get at.

IAAPT (I am a physics teacher) and, while it is possible for an object to be accelerating while at rest, that doesn't matter here. If the ball comes to rest in my hand (i.e., isn't moving) my intended acceleration of the ball has is of no consequence - dead ball, carrying call before the ball can get moving again.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

IAAPT (I am a physics teacher) and, while it is possible for an object to be accelerating while at rest, that doesn't matter here. If the ball comes to rest in my hand (i.e., isn't moving) my intended acceleration of the ball has is of no consequence - dead ball, carrying call before the ball can get moving again.

IANAPT, maybe that's why I can't understand how the ball becomes dead whenever it 'comes to rest' in a player's hand before the ball has a chance to get moving again.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

IANAPT, maybe that's why I can't understand how the ball becomes dead whenever it 'comes to rest' in a player's hand before the ball has a chance to get moving again.

It doesn't.

The player may be catching the ball for all we know. They have to continue the dribble before it can be a carry. If they don't continue it, it's nothing (perhaps a travel if they move the feet after it comes to rest).

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

IAAPT (I am a physics teacher) and, while it is possible for an object to be accelerating while at rest, that doesn't matter here. If the ball comes to rest in my hand (i.e., isn't moving) my intended acceleration of the ball has is of no consequence - dead ball, carrying call before the ball can get moving again.

"IAAPT (I am a physics teacher)". Good! I am a physics consumer.

Reality suggests the ball comes to rest against the hand in a conventional dribble (think Cousy) - the hand stays within 90 degrees of palm facing down and no vector of support has been exerted. Beyond that, some control is being exerted on the ball. If, during the time such contact exists, 2 steps take place, you have your basic spin move that, to lots of players, coaches, officials, and fans looks like a travel. Their instinctive complaint is that control of the ball is being exerted in a way other than accelerating the ball towards the floor.

On the other hand, as it were, it's possible for a hand to be placed under the ball and the ball to be redirected in the palm while decelerating it in such a way that it never comes fully to rest relative to the palm, though sufficient control has been exerted to impress observers that palming has taken place.

This wasn't an issue when everyone kept their hand on top of the ball (think Maravich - when he put his hand on the side of the ball, he batted it). The exceptions were few and easy to identify; they were exceptions. The language of the rule is inadequate to characterize the action in the modern game, and pointing to the spot, and calling it beautyfool . . . well that's just so Jurassic.