Rules Myths

[BillyMac]

Jurassic Referee has again convinced me by his rule citations to change #10 on my "Most Misunderstood Rules" handout:

10) (Change) Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand and the player either travels with the ball or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a playerÂ’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. (Rule 4-15-4a,b, Rule 4-43-2, Rule 9-5). (Thanks Jurassic Referee).

Note to Jurassic Referee: I respectfully disagree with your statement "Advantage/disadvantage was never meant to apply to violations". I have read and reread "The Intent and Purpose of the Rules", which I believe is refered to as the "Tower Philosophy", which is commonly refered to as "Advantage/Disadvantage", and nowhere does it state that this philosophy is meant to apply only to fouls and is not meant to apply to violations.

Basketball Forum members: Please keep those comments coming. I'm also interested in mistakes in grammar, punctuation, spelling, and sentence structure.

[Edited by BillyMac on Aug 23rd, 2005 at 12:50 PM]

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by BillyMac


Basketball Forum members: Please keep those comments coming. I'm also interested in mistakes in grammer, punctuation, spelling, and sentence structure.

[Edited by BillyMac on Aug 20th, 2005 at 08:15 PM]

You misspelled "grammar" and you put a comma before a conjunction after the second-to-last item in a list. Although some people do this, the AP stylebook says no. I'm referring to the comma, not the misspelling, which is a "no" all by itself.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BillyMac
Jurassic Referee has again convinced me by his rule citations to change #10 on my "Most Misunderstood Rules" handout:

10) (Change) Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand and the player either travels with the ball or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a playerÂ’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. (Rule 4-15-4a,b, Rule 4-43-2, Rule 9-5). (Thanks Jurassic Referee).

Note to Jurassic Referee: I respectfully disagree with your statement "Advantage/disadvantage was never meant to apply to violations". I have read and reread "The Intent and Purpose of the Rules", which I believe is refered to as the "Tower Philosophy", which is commonly refered to as "Advantage/Disadvantage", and nowhere does it state that this philosophy is meant to apply only to fouls and is not meant to apply to violations.

So........I take it that you're gonna train all of your officials to ignore palming if they don't happen to feel that an advantage was gained? Right? Oooo....kay.

Good luck. I'm sure that all of your coaches and fans will go along with that and applaud your officials' wisdom when they see blatant and obvious carries by their opponents ignored.

Personally, I think that you're setting yourself up for one helluva lot of grief if you disseminate statements like that to your coaches and parents. Do you really think that even one of them mighta even heard about something called the Tower Philosophy, let alone read it? Naw, all the coaches and parents know is that they saw an obvious palm out there and nobody called the damn thing. And to expect new or learning officials to carry out your advantage/disadvantage philosophy equally, uniformly and consistently on violations is just pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking on your part imo. They're lucky if they can recognize most violations, let alone trying to stop and think about whether they should actually call it or not.

I respectfully disagree completely with your advantage/disadvantage philosophy with regards to violations. And where are you gonna draw the line btw? Stepping oob is a violation. Gonna teach your guys to ignore that one also if they don't think an advantage was gained? Give 'em an extra step? Over and back when there's no pressure? Ten second count when there's no pressure? Ignore the thrower stepping inbounds on a throw-in? Do you plan on telling your officials to apply your advantage/disadvantage philosophy to all violations, or maybe just to a few that you personally think should be included?

Obviously, I ain't gonna change your mind. You know now how I feel though. You're trying to make the game a helluva lot more complicated than it it actually is, and that really ain't a good idea.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 20th, 2005 at 09:00 PM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

You misspelled "grammar" and you put a comma before a conjunction after the second-to-last item in a list. Although some people do this, the AP stylebook says no. I'm referring to the comma, not the misspelling, which is a "no" all by itself.

Yea, this is National Punctuation Day, isn't it?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
So........I take it that you're gonna train all of your officials to ignore palming if they don't happen to feel that an advantage was gained? Right? Oooo....kay.

I've ignored it (or addressed it with a commetn rather than a whistle) when there wasn't an advantage.

For example -- A1 dribbling the ball near the division line. The defense is in a zone. A1 holds up one hand to call the play while the other hand moves slightly under the ball and the ball comes to rest. A1 continues the dribble.

[BillyMac]

Note to Mark Padgett: Thanks for your help with the puctuation on item #29. You've got a keen eye for detail. I'm a poor speller and it was a toss-up for me on either "grammer" or "grammar". I was too lazy to go across the room to a dictionary and you caught me. Thanks

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by BillyMac
Note to Mark Padgett: Thanks for your help with the puctuation on item #29. You've got a keen eye for detail. I'm a poor speller and it was a toss-up for me on either "grammer" or "grammar". I was too lazy to go across the room to a dictionary and you caught me. Thanks

Glad to help. Just work on getting more edjumecated.

[tmp44]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Yea, this is National Punctuation Day, isn't it?

C'mon Juulie, you know that everyday is National Punctuation Day here.

[Edited for spelling, punctuation, and any other mistakes....]

[Lotto]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Yea, this is National Punctuation Day, isn't it?

Holy cow! National Punctuation Day has its own web site: http://www.nationalpunctuationday.com!

[BillyMac]

Note to Jurassic Referee: Thanks for your continued help with my "Misunderstood Rules" handout. You originally pointed out problems with five or six listings. Agreeing with you, I made some changes to three or four listings. We still can't seem to come to an agreement on two listings: #10, carrying, and #24, three-seconds, with the main part of our disagreement over the Tower Philosophy (advantage/disadvantage).

In regards to your most recent post: You stated that coaches and parents "might (have not) even heard about ... the Tower Philosophy". That's why I included this philosophy as the first listing on the handout:

1) It is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player of a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule.

Also, you alluded to this handout being used to train officials ("Gonna teach your guys"). This handout was never intended as a training tool. I am presently not a member of the training committee. The way things work on Board #6, new candidates are instructed to call the game by the book, attending about a dozen training sessions, so that they can pass the IAABO written test. After passing the test, they attend what we call "Bread and Butter" clinics during their first two or three years on the Board where they are taught the various nuances of rules and mechanics and are exposed to the Tower Philosophy of advantage/disadvantage. All of our officials, rookies and veterans, must attend eight Board meetings during each basketball season. At these meeting our interpreter makes presentations, that often involve advantage/disadvantage principles. He does the best he can to get the over 200 officials on our Board on the same page, and he does a great job at this.

In your most recent post you alluded to the philosophy used to apply the rules on the handout as my "(personal)" philosophy. It's not. It's the philosophy of the largest IAABO Board in Connecticut, servicing about 117 boys and girls, high school and prep-school basketball programs throughout Hartford and Middlesex Counties with over 200 officials. We as a Board also service many middle school programs and some factions of the Board service recreation, travel, and CYO programs. All the coaches, players, and parents involved with these programs are exposed to the same, uniform philosopy of officiating.

Please don't give up trying to convince me about carrying, three-seconds, and advantage/disadvantage. I look forward to our professional, on-line, public discussions. But please don't turn a blind eye to the other 28 listings. Again, my purpose is to make this a "perfect" handout by our preseason coaches meeting in November.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by BillyMac
Thanks to the many basketball forum members, especially Jurassic Referee, for their input to my "Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules" handout.

10) (Change) Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the hand is under the ball or when the ball rests in the hand. (Rule 4-15-4b). The part about the "hand under the ball" is by our Board #6 interpretation. We are taught by our interpreter that if the palm of the hand is facing the ceiling and if the dribbler is gaining an advantage, it's a carry (illegal dribble). (Thanks Jurassic Referee).

But this is still wrong. There are legal moves that have the hand below the ball that can give the dribbler an advantage.

The player may bat the ball upwards (with the hand on the bottom of the ball) as long as the ball is allowed to hit the floor before touching it again. The action must be a bat/tap and NOT a brief catch-throw (imagine volleyball).

It's rarely, if ever, used but legal. I've seen or heard of it being used only a couple of times ever.

Simply, the ball must come to rest in the hand to have a carry.

[BillyMac]

Note to Camron Rust: You may have missed the most recent changes that I made to #10 on my "Most Misunderstood Rules" handout:

10) (Recent Change) Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand and the player either travels with the ball or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a playerÂ’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.

I think that this takes into consideration your concerns about this listing on my handout. I appreciate your input.

Basketball Forum members: Please keep your comments coming. I need your help to make this list a success.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by BillyMac
Note to Camron Rust: You may have missed the most recent changes that I made to #10 on my "Most Misunderstood Rules" handout:

10) (Recent Change) Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand and the player either travels with the ball or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a playerÂ’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.

I think that this takes into consideration your concerns about this listing on my handout. I appreciate your input.

Basketball Forum members: Please keep your comments coming. I need your help to make this list a success.

You are correct...I did miss the most recent change.

[Jurassic Referee]

Fwiw, in another thread posted today there is an old ESPN interview linked with Ed T. Rush of the NBA's officiating staff. He was asked about "palming" in the NBA- specifically players being allowed to put their hand on the underside of the ball while dribbling. His reply was "The rule book states that a player's dribble is terminated when the ball comes to rest. The position of the hand does not always relate to the ball coming to rest".

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Lotto

Holy cow! National Punctuation Day has its own web site: http://www.nationalpunctuationday.com!

I think I need to get a few of those t-shirts.