New violation: unintended advantage?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
[/B]

Mark: a good example of this particular discretion is when A1 is on a breakaway and B1 fouls A2 before A1 has picked the ball up for the layup/dunk. This is not covered by the rule exception designed to thwart this kind of behavior . . . but, unless the foul is outrageous, a T (unsportsmanlike conduct - you can always call that, yuh know!) or an intentional personal is overkill. Just delay the whistle slightly . . . [/B][/QUOTE]There is no rule in the book that will allow you to call a "T" for a contact foul during a live ball. You cannot call a "T" on B1 on this play and hold your whistle until later. The rules will NOT let you do that. You can only delay non-contact unsporting "T"s if the other team is on a breakaway.

Also, on this play, if B1 fouls A2 before A1 has picked the ball up, you have 4 options--and 4 options ONLY- (1)call a common personal foul on B1(2)call an intentional personal foul on B1(3)call a flagrant personal foul on B1 or(4)ignore the foul and let A1 complete the play. If you do call a foul, you HAVE to call it immediately and kill the play. You CANNOT defer this call.There is absolutely no rules backing that will allow you to do that.

Wrong advice completely.

[Ref in PA]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

Mark: a good example of this particular discretion is when A1 is on a breakaway and B1 fouls A2 before A1 has picked the ball up for the layup/dunk. This is not covered by the rule exception designed to thwart this kind of behavior . . . but, unless the foul is outrageous, a T (unsportsmanlike conduct - you can always call that, yuh know!) or an intentional personal is overkill. Just delay the whistle slightly . . .

Overkill? If you call the foul in this case on a delayed whistle you have given the offense two points for the lay in and now the ball back. The intentional foul call immediately or the tech call would negate the layup and give two free throws instead with team A getting the ball back. Your delayed whistle is actually more of a punishment to team B than actually calling an intentional foul on the play when it happened because the two points are already scored (if you go with a common foul away from the ball). If you have an intentional foul away from the play before the shooting motion in effort to prevent an easy layup, call the intentional foul. Delaying could get you into a mess. What is A2 retaliates against B1 because he did not hear a whistle? What if A1 gets fouled somehow by someone else - now you have two fouls, one against the shooter and one away from the ball. I do not advocate a delayed whistle in this case.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
There is no rule in the book that will allow you to call a "T" for a contact foul during a live ball. You cannot call a "T" on B1 on this play and hold your whistle until later. The rules will NOT let you do that. You can only delay non-contact unsporting "T"s if the other team is on a breakaway.

Also, on this play, if B1 fouls A2 before A1 has picked the ball up, you have 4 options--and 4 options ONLY- (1)call a common personal foul on B1(2)call an intentional personal foul on B1(3)call a flagrant personal foul on B1 or(4)ignore the foul and let A1 complete the play. If you do call a foul, you HAVE to call it immediately and kill the play. You CANNOT defer this call.There is absolutely no rules backing that will allow you to do that.

Wrong advice completely.

My thoughts exactly (just articulated much better - thanks Jurrasic).

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
My thoughts exactly (just articulated much better - thanks Jurrasic).

Dexter, Dexter, Dexter!
Those were not "exactly" your thoughts.
Your thoughts stopped.
If they had been "your" thoughts, your fine education and technical skills would have overcome your sloth of mind.

JR's synergy of mind and body once again proves that your Dexter is Dextered.

Work on that.
mick

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by mick

Dexter, Dexter, Dexter!
Those were not "exactly" your thoughts.
Your thoughts stopped.
If they had been "your" thoughts, your fine education and technical skills would have overcome your sloth of mind.

JR's synergy of mind and body once again proves that your Dexter is Dextered.

Work on that.
mick

Yes, sir.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Yes, sir.

Shouldn't you say "YES SIR! WORKING ON THAT DEXTER RIGHT NOW! SIR!!"

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Mark: a good example of this particular discretion is when A1 is on a breakaway and B1 fouls A2 before A1 has picked the ball up for the layup/dunk. This is not covered by the rule exception designed to thwart this kind of behavior . . . but, unless the foul is outrageous, a T (unsportsmanlike conduct - you can always call that, yuh know!) or an intentional personal is overkill. Just delay the whistle slightly . . . [/B]

There is no rule in the book that will allow you to call a "T" for a contact foul during a live ball. You cannot call a "T" on B1 on this play and hold your whistle until later. The rules will NOT let you do that. You can only delay non-contact unsporting "T"s if the other team is on a breakaway.

Also, on this play, if B1 fouls A2 before A1 has picked the ball up, you have 4 options--and 4 options ONLY- (1)call a common personal foul on B1(2)call an intentional personal foul on B1(3)call a flagrant personal foul on B1 or(4)ignore the foul and let A1 complete the play. If you do call a foul, you HAVE to call it immediately and kill the play. You CANNOT defer this call.There is absolutely no rules backing that will allow you to do that.

Wrong advice completely. [/B][/QUOTE]

Oh balderdash. As you would say, sheer idiocy. Fine, call a flagrant intentional personal foul if you like - but in any case, don't allow the clown to take away the legitimately earned two points. Just blow slow.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

There is no rule in the book that will allow you to call a "T" for a contact foul during a live ball. You cannot call a "T" on B1 on this play and hold your whistle until later. The rules will NOT let you do that. You can only delay non-contact unsporting "T"s if the other team is on a breakaway.

Also, on this play, if B1 fouls A2 before A1 has picked the ball up, you have 4 options--and 4 options ONLY- (1)call a common personal foul on B1(2)call an intentional personal foul on B1(3)call a flagrant personal foul on B1 or(4)ignore the foul and let A1 complete the play. If you do call a foul, you HAVE to call it immediately and kill the play. You CANNOT defer this call.There is absolutely no rules backing that will allow you to do that.

Wrong advice completely. [/B]

Oh balderdash. As you would say, sheer idiocy. Fine, call a flagrant intentional personal foul if you like - but in any case, don't allow the clown to take away the legitimately earned two points. Just blow slow. [/B][/QUOTE]Balderdash?

Find somebody with a rule book and ask them if the ball is dead after a made basket and what rules then come into place re: contact fouls.

If you ever find any rule(s) anywhere that will back up what you are proposing, feel free to cite them for us.

Until then, anybody that would ever try to follow your advice is making one helluva big mistake imo.

Btw, what is a flagrant intentional personal foul? I've never heard of that particular type of foul and I can't seem to find any mention of anything like that in the rule book either. Is that another rule that you're making up yourself?

Lah me.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Oh balderdash. As you would say, sheer idiocy. Fine, call a flagrant intentional personal foul if you like - but in any case, don't allow the clown to take away the legitimately earned two points. Just blow slow. [/B]

Balderdash?

Find somebody with a rule book and ask them if the ball is dead after a made basket and what rules then come into place re: contact fouls.

If you ever find any rule(s) anywhere that will back up what you are proposing, feel free to cite them for us.

Until then, anybody that would ever try to follow your advice is making one helluva big mistake imo.

Btw, what is a flagrant intentional personal foul? I've never heard of that particular type of foul and I can't seem to find any mention of anything like that in the rule book either. Is that another rule that you're making up yourself?

Lah me.

[/B][/QUOTE]

What is the penalty for an intentional personal foul?

What is the penalty for a flagrant personal foul?


As for your tightness, I know (and sure, you know just the opposite) 'high level' officials, high school, D3 college, who take exactly the approach I have suggested. Justice is served, sleight of hand is all that's required.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

Balderdash?

Find somebody with a rule book and ask them if the ball is dead after a made basket and what rules then come into place re: contact fouls.

If you ever find any rule(s) anywhere that will back up what you are proposing, feel free to cite them for us.

Until then, anybody that would ever try to follow your advice is making one helluva big mistake imo.

Btw, what is a flagrant intentional personal foul? I've never heard of that particular type of foul and I can't seem to find any mention of anything like that in the rule book either. Is that another rule that you're making up yourself?

Lah me.

[/B]

What is the penalty for an intentional personal foul?

What is the penalty for a flagrant personal foul?


As for your tightness, I know (and sure, you know just the opposite) 'high level' officials, high school, D3 college, who take exactly the approach I have suggested. Justice is served, sleight of hand is all that's required. [/B][/QUOTE]I know what the penalties for both those fouls are. Now how is that relevant to anything that we're discussing in this thread? I also know that there's no such thing as a flagrant intentional personal foul, which is something that you didn't know obviously.

As for my tightness, I'm also much too old to be tight anymore.

You're right on one thing though. I sureashell certainly don't know any "high level" official that would ever delay the call until a basket was made and then call a delayed intentional or flagrant personal foul on a off-ball foul that occured before the basket was made.

I also hope that I will never,ever know any official that would do something like that either- at any level.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
You're right on one thing though. I sureashell certainly don't know any "high level" official that would ever delay the call until a basket was made and then call a delayed intentional or flagrant personal foul on a off-ball foul that occured before the basket was made.

I also hope that I will never,ever know any official that would do something like that either- at any level.

Just for my own edification, JR, remind me what you'd call or not call if there was a foul off-ball that is committed to stop an undefended fast break.

And then bring me some popcorn!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Just for my own edification, JR, remind me what you'd call or not call if there was a foul off-ball that is committed to stop an undefended fast break.

And then bring me some popcorn!

Two choices- whichever feels right on that particular play.

1) Ignore it completely.
2) Intentional personal foul.

I doubt very much that any defender would ever take the contact to the flagrant stage just to try and stop a break.

I can explain (or sell) either of those choices if asked. I can't logically explain the late whistle option laid out above. It's never a good idea imo to call something that you can't explain later.

What would you do, Juulie?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Two choices- whichever feels right on that particular play.

1) Ignore it completely.
2) Intentional personal foul.

I doubt very much that any defender would ever take the contact to the flagrant stage just to try and stop a break.

I can explain (or sell) either of those choices if asked. I can't logically explain the late whistle option laid out above. It's never a good idea imo to call something that you can't explain later.

What would you do, Juulie?

Two choices- whichever feels right on that particular play.

1) Ignore it completely.
2) Intentional personal foul.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Ref in PA

Overkill? If you call the foul in this case on a delayed whistle you have given the offense two points for the lay in and now the ball back. The intentional foul call immediately or the tech call would negate the layup and give two free throws instead with team A getting the ball back. Your delayed whistle is actually more of a punishment to team B than actually calling an intentional foul on the play when it happened because the two points are already scored (if you go with a common foul away from the ball). If you have an intentional foul away from the play before the shooting motion in effort to prevent an easy layup, call the intentional foul. Delaying could get you into a mess. What is A2 retaliates against B1 because he did not hear a whistle? What if A1 gets fouled somehow by someone else - now you have two fouls, one against the shooter and one away from the ball. I do not advocate a delayed whistle in this case.

Nicely reasoned. Thanks.

I agree my use of 'overkill' was just wrong. As you point out, my penalty is more Draconian - good, that's the point -don't be being a moron by trying something you probably know is outside the spirit - if not the rules. I still generally recommend what I recommended. Not is the lag time is 4 seconds fer Chrissake. Then you're gonna hafta call the foul away from the ball. But when the lag is slight, well - I thought the guy had picked the ball up when the foul happened . . .

[Ref in PA]

Jeff T.

I had a play in the middle of the 4th quarter between two rivals last year that was similar. I was the lead ahead of a fastbreak 2-2. The A1 dumped the ball to A2 on the wing when the A1 reached the top of the key. B1 attempted to take a charge from the A1, but really flopped. B1 then proceded to do a "leg take-down" on A1. Meanwhile A2 is driving for the lay up, having beaten B2. By the time I realize what B1 did, A2 is in his shooting motion. I blow the whistle.

My ruling: The bucket counts because A2 was in his motion, common foul on B1, A1 shoots 1 and 1.

Since this play happened at the end of the season, it has bothered me since - mainly because of the timing. What I did not do - and I believe was my biggest mistake - I did not talk with my partner on the timing of what he saw. If it really happened that way, then I can defend the call. If it did not happen that way, if the foul by B1 was before A2 started his motion, then I did the delay whistle and got it wrong.

I guess all I am saying is that calling it that way bothered me. Even though it was a bang-bang play, lots of explanations were needed for the coach and the home town crowd was not happy.