Team Control Foul

[drothamel]

I can almost guarantee there is going to be MAJOR confusion over this rule. I do think it is a great change, however.

Z brings up a good situation: rebounding action. Team B in the bonus. A1 Shoots, A2 fouls B2 in an attempt to gain the rebound. By rule, B2 gets the bonus free throws. Can you imagine trying to explain team control to the coach of team A? Like anything, some coaches are going to understand it, but I think there are going to be some problems for the first year of the new rule.

Add to that lack of a signal for a team control foul, and I can definitely see some confusion coming this year. Why don't we just use the same signal as player control, which everyone knows means no shots?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Use any signal that you want to use.

Didn't you read the other thread?

Mary Struckhoff said it was OK.

That is not what she said. She said that any state can come up with mechanics that might vary from the NF Official's Manual. I can tell you that if officials do not use the proper mechanics (IHSA mechanics), it can and has affected officials playoff opportunities.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by mick
M&M Guy,
Which team is in control on a rebound?
mick

The referee team, of course, is always in control.

You know about team control. I know about team control. But we aren't the ones doin' the yelling or complaining. I guess the point I was trying to make has to do with the communication aspect - how do we communicate with our partners, the players, and the coaches that we will not be shooting free throws on this foul? I use the rebounding foul as an example: if the ball is coming of the rim after a shot, and A1 pushes B1 in the back to clear out, I'll blow the whistle, give the push signal, and point the other way to let people know we're going towards B's basket. But, B1 will also be shooting the bonus. Now, in the same play, let's say A2 gets the rebound, then A1 pushes B1, I've got essentially the same signals, but we're not shooting the bonus. So, how will people know without doing a lot of extra verbal communicating? I would think a different signal would be a big help.

[mick]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

The referee team, of course, is always in control.

You know about team control. I know about team control. But we aren't the ones doin' the yelling or complaining. I guess the point I was trying to make has to do with the communication aspect - how do we communicate with our partners, the players, and the coaches that we will not be shooting free throws on this foul? I use the rebounding foul as an example: if the ball is coming of the rim after a shot, and A1 pushes B1 in the back to clear out, I'll blow the whistle, give the push signal, and point the other way to let people know we're going towards B's basket. But, B1 will also be shooting the bonus. Now, in the same play, let's say A2 gets the rebound, then A1 pushes B1, I've got essentially the same signals, but we're not shooting the bonus. So, how will people know without doing a lot of extra verbal communicating? I would think a different signal would be a big help.

M&M Guy,
Not to worry. When they see the Team Control signal (whatever you show), they'll know the ball is merely going the other way.

After the second game the fans will catch on.
mick

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by mick

After the second game the fans will catch on.
mick

Second game of which year?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

The referee team, of course, is always in control.

You know about team control. I know about team control. But we aren't the ones doin' the yelling or complaining. I guess the point I was trying to make has to do with the communication aspect - how do we communicate with our partners, the players, and the coaches that we will not be shooting free throws on this foul? I use the rebounding foul as an example: if the ball is coming of the rim after a shot, and A1 pushes B1 in the back to clear out, I'll blow the whistle, give the push signal, and point the other way to let people know we're going towards B's basket. But, B1 will also be shooting the bonus. Now, in the same play, let's say A2 gets the rebound, then A1 pushes B1, I've got essentially the same signals, but we're not shooting the bonus. So, how will people know without doing a lot of extra verbal communicating? I would think a different signal would be a big help.

I agree, I can't understand why they didn't adopt a TC signal. OTOH, it is not a big deal to communicate with your partners what you have - in your play a simple "no control, we're shooting bonus FTs" should do it. In fact, as I think of it there's no reason why that wouldn't work with your average head-about-to-explode coach.

As for the fans...

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Use any signal that you want to use.

Didn't you read the other thread?

Mary Struckhoff said it was OK.

Ooooh, can I use the swirlie signal? That could mean the coach and I are going to go 'round and 'round about team control...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

Ooooh, can I use the swirlie signal?

You could use your middle finger extant for the team control foul signal. As long as everyone in your state is also using the same finger, apparently that's fine with Mary Struckhoff.

Seriously, I can't see anything the matter with using the NCAA Woman's "punch", as long as everyone in your area is also using it. I imagine that, somewhere along the line, one of the high foreheads at the FED will tell us what signal that they want us to use though .

[pauli]

In college, team control exists during a throw-in for the purpose of fouls (so no free throws) My understanding that the new high school rule does not consider a team throwing the ball in to have team control, so we would have free throws if A2 pushes off B2 while A1 is with the ball OOB (B2 shooting if in bonus). Anyone know if this difference will exist?

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
You could use your middle finger extant for the team control foul signal. As long as everyone in your state is also using the same finger, apparently that's fine with Mary Struckhoff.

Seriously, I can't see anything the matter with using the NCAA Woman's "punch", as long as everyone in your area is also using it. I imagine that, somewhere along the line, one of the high foreheads at the FED will tell us what signal that they want us to use though.

Sigh...can't use the middle finger signal because that's the signal I use to respond to the coach's, "You'll never work here again" comments.

"One of the high foreheads at the FED" - is that the same as, "pencil-headed geeks"? Or are we talking about a slightly different usage here? Anyway, whoever they are, I hope they come up with something. Don't get me wrong, I love the change, but I'm worried that the time saved by not shooting FT's will be more than used up by conferences, huddles, and explanations trying to figure things out, especially by the less-experienced officials.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by pauli
In college, team control exists during a throw-in for the purpose of fouls (so no free throws) My understanding that the new high school rule does not consider a team throwing the ball in to have team control, so we would have free throws if A2 pushes off B2 while A1 is with the ball OOB (B2 shooting if in bonus). Anyone know if this difference will exist?

Your understanding is corect. The NFHS team control foul rule will not apply during throw-ins, as per the FED website .

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by JRutledge

All you are supposed to do is call a foul, signal the type of foul; point to the other end of the floor; indicate the spot for the designated spot throw-in. That is all that is it. No new signal will be used this year.

Peace

All this discussion about a lack of a signal or confusion and JRutledge's post has a clear element overlook throughout the whole discussion...I've highlighted it in red.

That IS the new signal sequence. Sure, it's not a NEW signal, but its a clear use of existing signals. I've actually seen it used several times in college games.

Pointing the other direction should be clear enough while keeping the nature of the foul (something that the PC signal lacks).

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

All this discussion about a lack of a signal or confusion and JRutledge's post has a clear element overlook throughout the whole discussion...I've highlighted it in red.

That IS the new signal sequence. Sure, it's not a NEW signal, but its a clear use of existing signals. I've actually seen it used several times in college games.

Pointing the other direction should be clear enough while keeping the nature of the foul (something that the PC signal lacks).

Can't you point to the other end and say, "White 23, you are shooting," too?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by blindzebra

Can't you point to the other end and say, "White 23, you are shooting," too?

No way. I'm not giving white 23 any more calls. He's been griping all game. In fact, I think I'll toss him just for the fun of it!

So there.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by blindzebra

Can't you point to the other end and say, "White 23, you are shooting," too?

If we use the signal only in non-shooting situations, it should be clear enough. If we're shooting, come up with the 1n1 or 2. If we're throwing it in, come up with the point.