Teaching the Foul Tip

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by zebraman
The only time I see homegrown signals in my area of reffing is by a new official. They only do it until a vet tells them to stop.

That being said, one of our vet officials told me that the foul-tip signal is going to be an approved NFHS mechanic next year and that it was in the 2005-06 books. I didn't know if he was serious or kidding. Anyone else hear that?

Z

Shhhh...don't tell mick. The poor guy will be beside himself.

[Junker]

I do use the foul tip mechanic to communicate with partners if they look to me for help, but I would never just use it on my own. If I'm calling it myself and a coach asks the question, I'll tell him it was tipped rather than use the mechanic.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am still trying to figure out how there can be a foul tip in a basketball game.

MTD, Sr.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I am still trying to figure out how there can be a foul tip in a basketball game.

MTD, Sr.

Easy - just the other day I was giving my partner advice on how to grill a chicken breast...

Welcome back. How was Florida?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I am still trying to figure out how there can be a foul tip in a basketball game.

MTD, Sr.

The same where there are signals for an "untimed down, illegal block in the back" and "encroachment" in basketball.

Peace

[SeanFitzRef]

Wouldn't the best mechanic (and the approved one, BTW), to show everyone that the ball was tipped, be to start a ten-second count? That's what I always do, and there are no questions asked.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef
Wouldn't the best mechanic (and the approved one, BTW), to show everyone that the ball was tipped, be to start a ten-second count? That's what I always do, and there are no questions asked.

That might be too late if someone wrongly calls a BC violation.

Peace

[Larks]

I use it near the division line for that defender tip'd the ball and I only do it once, not 3 or 4 "tips". Seems to have been "ok" for me and I havent heard any feedback not to do it.

My thought or question is why leave it up to a coach's guess as to whether I saw the play or not?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Larks
I use it near the division line for that defender tip'd the ball and I only do it once, not 3 or 4 "tips". Seems to have been "ok" for me and I havent heard any feedback not to do it.

My thought or question is why leave it up to a coach's guess as to whether I saw the play or not?

I have not used it for the coach's benefit. I do it for my partner's benefit. I can only see this being used in a 3 Person mechanic. The Trail might not see a tip and make an improper call. I keep hearing guys talk about "get it right," to me this signal helps "get it right."

Peace

[SeanFitzRef]

JRut,

Why not two-whistle as well? The lead can see the play in his primary and communicate with this signal to his partner without losing his perspective on his primary. I think it would be more necessary in two-whistle over three.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef
JRut,

Why not two-whistle as well? The lead can see the play in his primary and communicate with this signal to his partner without losing his perspective on his primary. I think it would be more necessary in two-whistle over three.

I do not call a lot of two whistle games any more (at least not in real games). When I do work two person there is not many situations where a Trail official cannot see a tipped pass. The Trail and the Center officials both have certain responsibilities with the division line. If both officials are doing their job, it is really possible that one of the officials will not see how the ball got to the back court and make an improper call. Of course you can come back and talk to your partner and straighten it out. I just see nothing wrong with a brief signal to let your partner know that initially that the ball was tipped away by the defensive team. I have had partners come to me and try to get me to change a BC violation when they did not see what I saw as I was in the Trail position. So coming together and talking does not guarantee that something is going to be changed.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I do not call a lot of two whistle games any more (at least not in real games). When I do work two person there is not many situations where a Trail official cannot see a tipped pass. The Trail and the Center officials both have certain responsibilities with the division line. If both officials are doing their job, it is really possible that one of the officials will not see how the ball got to the back court and make an improper call. Of course you can come back and talk to your partner and straighten it out. I just see nothing wrong with a brief signal to let your partner know that initially that the ball was tipped away by the defensive team. I have had partners come to me and try to get me to change a BC violation when they did not see what I saw as I was in the Trail position. So coming together and talking does not guarantee that something is going to be changed.

Peace

It's just as likely in two, unless trail is ball watching. You have a pass coming from lead's corner getting tipped, if trail is watching where they should, they should not know if the tip occured.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by blindzebra


It's just as likely in two, unless trail is ball watching. You have a pass coming from lead's corner getting tipped, if trail is watching where they should, they should not know if the tip occured.

You may be right, but I do not work enough 2 Person to really care what you do in that system. I feel that if you pre-game things you can use that signal. Remember we used the "kicking" mechanic for years and this was no where in the Official's Manual. I think some "special" mechanics can be used if the people in your area do not have a problem with it. If the people you work for do, do not use the signal.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by JRutledge

You may be right, but I do not work enough 2 Person to really care what you do in that system. I feel that if you pre-game things you can use that signal. Remember we used the "kicking" mechanic for years and this was no where in the Official's Manual. I think some "special" mechanics can be used if the people in your area do not have a problem with it. If the people you work for do, do not use the signal.

Peace

I have no problem with signals that can communicate an unknown for either our partner(s), the table, or the coaches.

The tip signal to avoid an unneccessary violation, the hands apart on closely guarded, the down pointing two fingers on a close 2/3 point attempt, or even the little head shake get up wave for a flopper.

I get to do both 2 and 3 person, although it's less 3 than I'd like, and really you approach each the same way. We are actually encouraged to bring as much 3 person to our 2 person games as we can in terms of breaking down the court, going ballside, etc.

Lead is pretty much the same, except we don't stay ballside during transition, we work back to boxed in.

They want trail to be aggressive and we kind of have a hybrid trail/center sort of thing going on. Trail is expected to work lower when the ball is away and many of us will split the lane when we are in a half court set.

The major difference is those of us doing two person have to work A LOT harder.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by blindzebra
I have no problem with signals that can communicate an unknown for either our partner(s), the table, or the coaches.

I think it's safe to say everyone here agrees that communication is important. The best officials are the ones that are great communicators - signals, verbal, facial expressions, even body language.

Now, let me play devil's advocate. The reason we have a prescribed set of signals is so everyone is consistent at the level that is being worked. That is part of our communication; if a player/coach/fan sees a signal one place, but travels 100 miles away and sees a different signal for the same thing, we have not communicated properly. If you go back to mick's original post (and I'm not sure where he's been since - maybe he's in the back yard with his pet skunk) he asks what we are communicating if we DON'T use the tip signal. Does that mean the defense did not tip it, or did he just not see it? My contention would be to not show anything at the time; if it's a violation, we blow the whistle, if it's not, we do nothing. BZ mentioned a pet peeve of mine (although only a small one ), of pointing to the 3-point line and signaling a "2" to the table on a close play. It's either a 3-point shot, or it's not. If it's a 3-point shot, we have a signal for the attempt, and a signal for the made shot. If we do neither, it's not. That's our communication. How far away does the foot need to be for us to not need to signal a "2"? The table shouldn't need to watch for any other signal other than the "touchdown". (Oops, there's another sport's signal in basketball.)

Sure, if there's a question about a play, we can communicate an answer. And as JRut mentioned earlier, if your local association wants you to communicate that way, then by all means do it. But we have to be careful about over-communicating; that includes using unnecessary signals all the time, as well as, say, talking too much to the coaches.