[M&M Guy]

BZ - If the table missed your TD signal, wouldn't they miss the "2" signal as well?

No. You give the "2" signal to make it clear what the result of the shot was.

That was a kind of toungue-in-cheek answer to BZ's comment about the table not seeing the 3-point TD signal. If they didn't see both of your arms up in the air, how in the world would they see your 2 fingers?

How would most people feel if we saw an official watch a drive to the basket, then follow it with a "safe" signal to let everyone know he saw the play and there was no foul? That would look kind of strange. If there's a foul, we blow the whistle and hold up our fist, if not, we don't.

I am not sure if you work baseball or softball, umpires make "safe" calls because they have to call something. Either the runner is safe or that runner is out. We do not just make a call just to make one.

You might've missed my point on this one. I was talking about a basketball referee making a "safe" signal. I actually saw a new referee do this; his reasoning was to communicate that he saw the play and there was no foul. This is exactly the reasoning behind all these other "unapproved" signals. My point was this one looked funny; I can see how some of the other unapproved signals can look funny if not everyone is using the same signals.

In the case of the closely guarded count, I was told at a camp once that officials started using the hands-apart signal as a lazy way to let everyone know they were watching, instead of using body language to show they really were in position and watching. Then, there was either a count, or not.

The "not" closely guarded signal is a college mechanic. It is there to purposely communicate to everyone that the official no longer has a count. I agree that signal should not be used at the HS level (unless approved for use) but that is the college way. The college ranks has no problem with making things clear and they use many more signals to help their officials communicate things that are not so obvious.

We agree on this one - if it's an approved signal, let's use it, if not, don't.

For those that work baseball or softball, the closest analogy I can think of is when you call balls and strikes - it's either a strike or a ball. When I did softball, I was taught that it's not "ball, low", or "juuuust a bit outside". If someone asks, you can tell them. But I was told it shows either weakness or a lack of confidence if you have to explain and justify every call. Wouldn't that apply to basketball?

Again this is not a good comparison, because in baseball (or softball) we are not supposed to signal or tell anything else but ball or strike.

Again - exactly my point. Why wouldn't this apply to basketball? We're only supposed to signal a "3" and not a "2". If there's an over-and-back violation, there's a signal for that, but if there isn't a violation, there's no signal in the manual for "no violation".

We don't have to explain every close 2 or 3-point shot, or every time the ball is tipped before going in the backcourt. If someone, say our partner or the table, needs to know, of course we communicate with them. But if we start to do it all the time, we might not be projecting that confidence and court presence.

I really do not think anyone said to do in on every close 2 or 3 point shot. Many times it depending on the competence of the table personnel and the configuration of the court, I am dealing with.

Again, I don't disagree that we need to be able to communicate in unusual circumstances. An unknowledgable table crew, or a table that has a partially blocked view, or an unusual play that requires something extra from us certainly counts towards using whatever communication we can give, including these signals. Maybe I'm not as hard-line as some others on this board by saying I have no problem with using "unapproved" signals when necessary. I think there are still a few that feel if it's not shown in the book, don't ever use it. But I am a little leery of using them all the time. Granted, we don't have over-and-back calls every game, or close 2 or 3-point shots every game. But if we use those signals every time it happens, I think that's too often.