One of our guys went to an officials camp in Saginaw where they were being taught to use the *foul tip* in the event a defender last touches the ball in the front court and may be legally recovered by the offense in the back court.

Is this a national epidemic encouraged by many camps?

The thought, I am told, is to show the coaches that the tip was seen, and to keep the coaches quiet.

What, then, does it mean when the official <U>does not show</U> the foul tip?[*]Does it mean the defense *absolutely* <U>did not touch</U> the ball?[*]Does it mean the official <U>did not see</U> the *tip*?

Bad idea!!!
:(

mick

Mick,

I have been taught over the years to use this signal for backcourt violation situations (where you do not call one).

I really do not think it matters. Most coaches do not know the rules anyway.

Peace

At any camp there are going to be individual clinicians teaching things that are homemade or downright incorrect, you know that. I would guess this to be the situation as I have not been told at any camp to use this mechanic. Though, I have never been told not to either.

It's called "overthinking" the damn game, Mick.

From what I've read here lately about some of the different camps, there seems to be a real epidemic of that going around.

Come on now, surely you don't have a problem with keeping the coaches quiet. (Man, I love selective editing...I might have a career in journalism.)

Anyway, if it will make you feel any better - this was not encouraged at any of the camps I was at this summer. In fact, I did see it mentioned to a younger official to *not* use this signal, probably for most of reasons you espouse. Of course, if a coach is just dying to know what happened, I have given this signal to help communicate that the defense was the last to touch it, but usually not when it happens. Of course, communication is always important, and I'm sure there will always be changes that someone feels will help us communicate better. Or, maybe it's just something that will only happen U.P. there?...

I think M&M's approach is best...no signal by default. If a coach ask about it, then communicate, perhaps using a tip signal.

When in Rome you do what the Romans do. If you work for a conference that has an assignor that wants this signal, you better use the signal if you are working in that conference. If you work in an area that does not want the signal used, do not use the signal. If you work in a conference that has never addressed the issue, do what you feel is right. I do not think we should "over think" the request at one camp from probably one evaluator that most of us will never attend.

Peace

Good advice. In fact, this advice could be used in about a third of the threads on this site. JRut, are you really reading these, or just cutting and pasting your answers? ;)

I have used the signal as C when the ball has come out of my area. I'm giving the signal to T so that T knows not to call the BC violation.

Referee Magazine had a pic play suggesting this mechanic a few years ago.

The play had the pass coming from lead's corner being tipped into the backcourt. They suggested lead come off the endline with the tip signal during the play to give trail the info needed to not make a violation call.

I can understand using it in this type of situation, where the official who had the tip in their primary is different than who will call the violation.

I don't think it's needed on every possible backcourt call though.

JRut,

This is certainly true. I think I told this story on the board earlier. Anyways, I was working a camp this summer, I was the trailing official and the ball was in the front court (toward the end of the game). The defense tipped the ball and then it went off the offense player into the backcourt, of course I called a violation. Coach didn't agree with the call and asked to speak with me, so about two minutes later the second half was over (this camp was using running clock halves). He asked me what my call was and I told him I had a violation since his player touched the ball before it was in the backcourt. He told me that didn't matter and that I "needed to learn this before going onto the court". Of course this was a varsity coach.... sad sad sad.

I use the tip mechanic in situations where the defensive touch is not really obvious. I have never had an evaluator or clinician criticize its use as excessive or unnecessary.

I don't see how it can be a bad thing - it helps communicate, and minimizes potential heat from coaches.

I use the foul-tip signal and, like Canuck, I can't see a real problem with it. It just explains what I saw and why a call was made.

I tend to not use the signal, as it gives an advantage to the offense (otherwise, they take a risk of picking up the ball if they're not sure if they touched it last).

I will, however, use it *after* the offense has recovered, if there is any "lingering doubt" from the defensive team.

The only time I see homegrown signals in my area of reffing is by a new official. They only do it until a vet tells them to stop.

That being said, one of our vet officials told me that the foul-tip signal is going to be an approved NFHS mechanic next year and that it was in the 2005-06 books. I didn't know if he was serious or kidding. Anyone else hear that?

Z