Another 3-seconds question

[rainmaker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Originally posted by rainmaker
It sounds like what you're saying is that if A1 is dribbling outside the 3-pt line, and fumbles, and then re-asserts his/her dribble, we start over with the 3-second count on A2, who has been in the paint the whole time. Is that right?

Opps! Less not confuse a fumble and an interrupted dribble. They are not the same. Let's re--phrase the question.

It sounds like what you're saying is that if A1 is dribbling outside the 3-pt line, and the ball bounces off his leg, and then re-asserts his/her dribble, we start over with the 3-second count on A2, who has been in the paint the whole time. Is that right?

Yes.


Oh, dear. Now I'm back to being confused about interrupted dribbles and fumbles. If it bounces off his leg, and then he re-dribbles, isn't that double dribble, or travel? Is it interrupted dribble if the defender swats away the ball and then the dribbler gets it back? If the dribbler fumbles, and thus there isn't an interrupted dribble, the 3-second count keeps going? If I'm lead and the ball is a long ways away, with eight or nine players between me and the ball, what if I can't tell if it's a fumble or an interrupted dribble?

Is this why our commissioner says never call 3-seconds until the person who is over limit in the key receives the ball?

Thanks for the help!!

[Edited by rainmaker on Mar 31st, 2001 at 10:50 PM]

[BktBallRef]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Oh, dear. Now I'm back to being confused about interrupted dribbles and fumbles. If it bounces off his leg, and then he re-dribbles, isn't that double dribble, or travel?

No, it's neither. Let's look at the rule.
4-15-5
An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

A1 is dribbling the ball. The ball strikes his leg or foot and momentarily gets away for him. The dribble has been interrupted. He may go after the ball and legally continue his dribble. Your 3 second count should stop or should not start.

Now, a fumble is different.
4-21
A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp.

A1 is dribbling the ball. He picks up his dribble but fumbles the ball which momentarily gets away for him. The ball has been fumbled. By rule, your 3 second count continues. He may go after the ball and legally retrieve it but if he bats it to the floor, he's double dribbled.

If I'm lead and the ball is a long ways away, with eight or nine players between me and the ball, what if I can't tell if it's a fumble or an interrupted dribble? Is this why our commissioner says never call 3-seconds until the person who is over limit in the key receives the ball?

Now we're talking more realistically. In either play, let's say that A2 is camped in the lane. Is there any possibility that the ball is going to be passed to him or shot? Of course not. That's why the commish says not to call 3 seconds.

And he's correct.

[rainmaker]

Tony --

Way cool post -- for some reason the wording you used lit up some light bulbs in my brain. Let me ask a few more questions. A fumble happens when a player is holding the ball, not dribbling, correct? If the ball hits the dribbler's leg, but doesn't "get away from him" he can dribble again if the ball hits the floor first, but if he dribbles first (ie leg, dribble, floor) then is it a travel? With all of these details to keep straight, why does Solution Man think his four more pages of details are a good idea!?!?!?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Tony --

Way cool post -- for some reason the wording you used lit up some light bulbs in my brain. Let me ask a few more questions. A fumble happens when a player is holding the ball, not dribbling, correct?

Yes, that's correct.

If the ball hits the dribbler's leg, but doesn't "get away from him" he can dribble again if the ball hits the floor first, but if he dribbles first (ie leg, dribble, floor) then is it a travel?

No. Except for two exceptions, you can't travel unless you're holding the ball. You could only have a double dribble if the dribbler touched the ball with both hands before it hit the floor. Otherwise, you don't have anything.

With all of these details to keep straight, why does Solution Man think his four more pages of details are a good idea!?!?!?

He's a dream, isn't he?

[JoeT]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Is this why our commissioner says never call 3-seconds until the person who is over limit in the key receives the ball?

Is he talking about not calling it in the case of ID/Fumble or NEVER calling it until the person receives the ball?

If he means the latter, I disagree with that advice. I'm sure somebody will explain why I'm wrong!

Joe

[Richard Ogg]

Originally posted by BktBallRef


No. Except for two exceptions, you can't travel unless you're holding the ball. You could only have a double dribble if the dribbler touched the ball with both hands before it hit the floor. Otherwise, you don't have anything.

That is to say, if A1 is dribbling, the ball hits foot/leg/rock and bounces away, A1 can recover and keep dribbling as long as A1 does not pick up the ball with both hands (or put one hand under the ball). So, assuming it is bouncing away, run over and keep batting it toward the floor. But don't grab it with 2 hands and start dribbling, and don't palm it.

If B1 bats it away, anything goes (and usually does).

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Richard Ogg

That is to say, if A1 is dribbling, the ball hits foot/leg/rock and bounces away, A1 can recover and keep dribbling as long as A1 does not pick up the ball with both hands (or put one hand under the ball). So, assuming it is bouncing away, run over and keep batting it toward the floor. But don't grab it with 2 hands and start dribbling, and don't palm it.

If B1 bats it away, anything goes (and usually does).

You are correct. Juulie didn't say anything about the dribbler picking the ball up. She only asked if he could continue dribbling.

[dhodges007]

I noticed in the game last night that one of the duke players was camping out in the paint. I was wondering if they were going to call 3 seconds on him or not. When another player went to drive for the basket and the official saw that they might score, he then called three seconds. But that brings up a question. What if he shot the three instead, would he have blown the whistle then?

[Brian Watson]

This is why I don't buy into the theory of not calling before he/she gets the ball or some other advantage presents itself.

If you wait that long, you run the risk of an huge advantage being gained, and then will look worse calling it.

I look at it like this...

Close game, team that is up by two is running the clock down out by the division line, and their center is campes out. Now is he affecting play, not at the moment, but you are penalizing the defensive team by not calling it.

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
This is why I don't buy into the theory of not calling before he/she gets the ball or some other advantage presents itself.

If you wait that long, you run the risk of an huge advantage being gained, and then will look worse calling it.

I look at it like this...

Close game, team that is up by two is running the clock down out by the division line, and their center is campes out. Now is he affecting play, not at the moment, but you are penalizing the defensive team by not calling it.

Good point...

[Hawks Coach]

In my experience, three seconds is never three seconds, regardless of advantage/disadvantage. Most officials call nothing til at least 5 seconds, regardless of level of play. At that point, touching the ball should have nothing to do with it. If you're camping that long, it's 3 seconds and then some, and should be called as such.

[Brian Watson]

I have a good example of this from last year (just didn't have the time to type it out earlier.

I was trail, PG shoots a three and misses. As soon as the girl underneath rebounds the ball, my parter blows a 3 second violation. Coach, understandably goes nuts. I huddle with him and remind him the shot ended the count, but he had it before the shot and didn't call it because the girl was 20 feet from the ball. She got the rebound because she was camped out and he felt the need to call it.

This means I have to listen to the coach grip the rest of the game becuase he made us both look like morons by holding onto the call. It was a quiet halftime locker room, I'll tell you that.

[Hawks Coach]

Brian - This may explain some of the three second calls I have gotten right after my player rebounds - but I also agree that this makes the ref appear to be a fool with respect to the three seconds rule. Granted, many coaches are screaming for a three seconds call after three successive offensive rebounds/put back attempts (because they don't know the rule). For those of us that know the rule, it makes us wonder if you know it when you hold the call until a player rebounds a missed shot.

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Brian - This may explain some of the three second calls I have gotten right after my player rebounds - but I also agree that this makes the ref appear to be a fool with respect to the three seconds rule. Granted, many coaches are screaming for a three seconds call after three successive offensive rebounds/put back attempts (because they don't know the rule). For those of us that know the rule, it makes us wonder if you know it when you hold the call until a player rebounds a missed shot.

Now, it only restarts if it hits rim but not if it hits backboard...correct?

[Brian Watson]

That does not matter. Team possesion ends on any shot attempt. The ball does not need to touch the rim or backboard to be a legit shot attempt. This is why the same player can catch their own airball.

The count would not restart until team possession was re-established.