2-whistle vs. 3-whistle

[drothamel]

I just worked a big AAU tournament here at UVA this past weekend. A number of the top recruits on the east coast were here. The level of play was exceptional. We did all of the games 2-whistle until the semis and finals. Since our association only uses 3-whistle during the school year, I hadn't done 2-whistle in a while. I was a bit rusty, to say the least. I just wanted to say that I am impressed with all of you out there who manage to do a game 2-whistle. I found it much more difficult, especially when I had the ball and true post play in my area. With players who are this good and this physical, I always felt like I was missing something. When I got to the 3-whistle games, I had a new appreciaion for it. I saw another post about Wisconsin phasing in 3-whistle. I say, good idea.

Does anyone think that we will see more states move entirely to 3-whistle in the near future. And out of curiosity, for those who do use 2-whistle, what do you think about it?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Give me a 3-whistle game to officiate anytime.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Once states get over the fear of more fouls being called and schools figure out how to use officials properly, then it will happen. I am so glad that my state was ahead and required it for the playoffs about 9 years ago.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Once states get over the fear of more fouls being called and schools figure out how to use officials properly, then it will happen. I am so glad that my state was ahead and required it for the playoffs about 9 years ago.

Peace

I really doubt the primary obstacle to 3-man is the thought of more fouls being called.

Money is the biggest issue. Anyway you slice it, it's usually a pay cut. At $42-$48 per varisty game for 2 man, it would go to $28-$32 and the schools would still not break even when they now have to pay 3 mileages.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

I really doubt the primary obstacle to 3-man is the thought of more fouls being called.

Money is the biggest issue. Anyway you slice it, it's usually a pay cut. At $42-$48 per varisty game for 2 man, it would go to $28-$32 and the schools would still not break even when they now have to pay 3 mileages.

You would be surprised. When the NCAA started to use the 3 Man system that was the complaint. When my state changed the foul total was the supposed complaint. Money might be one of the reasons, but when you pay the table personnel more than you pay the officials. I think most schools can find less than $100 increase each home game.

Peace

[tmp44]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

I really doubt the primary obstacle to 3-man is the thought of more fouls being called.

Money is the biggest issue. Anyway you slice it, it's usually a pay cut. At $42-$48 per varisty game for 2 man, it would go to $28-$32 and the schools would still not break even when they now have to pay 3 mileages.

This is the biggest issue in Western PA. The highest two classifications (AAA and AAAA) are required to have 3-whistle on all conference games, the smaller two classifications (A and AA) are mandated by each conference and the athletic directors individually. For the smaller schools, obviously there is less revenue, but many times the quality of play is only slightly below the larger classes. There is a fairly large movement by officials' organizations that are in areas that are primarily A and AA schools to move to 3-man crews, especially at the AA level; we'll see what happens.

At the same time, the AAA and AAAA schools are giving bigger checks to 3-man crews (55-70 a game per official) than the A and AA for 2-man crews (50 a game per official), although we don't get reimbursed for mileage like many other states.

[Nevadaref]

You are both probably right. It depends upon who you ask and how well you know them. I have heard both complaints given as a reason for not moving to 3-man or for wanting to go back to 2-man.

Many schools and people state that the extra cost is prohibitive. Of course, they could dislike 3-man for other reasons (it allows older officials to keep doing games), but know that none of those are really strong enough to prevent its implementation, so they hide behind the money issue.
On the other side there are others, who perhaps don't want to admit that something as crass as money is at the root of it, so they say too many fouls are called and the best players don't get enough court time as a result.

My area went through a big battle over 2-man vs. 3-man last season.
It was my experience that many people weren't completely honest when giving their reasons. That makes it difficult to say what is the primary stumbling block to universal implementation of the 3-man system.

[JRutledge]

Nevadaref,

It depends on who is complaining. If the school board has to come up with an extra $50 a night (if they do not require both games to be worked by the same officials), that is their complaint. Coaches on the other hand are not as involved in the money side. Coaches tend to complain about foul counts and qualified officials. Coaches tend to yell the loudest and we here their complaints the most.

Peace

[brainbrian]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Money might be one of the reasons, but when you pay the table personnel more than you pay the officials.

When I worked the table last season at my little high school I got $15/game cash. No mileage.

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by brainbrian

When I worked the table last season at my little high school I got $15/game cash. No mileage.

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Around here, I know that a lot of the table people are volunteers -- retired teachers, parents who like to stay in touch, others who just want to be around the game. For the school, hat's a price that's pretty hard to beat.

[Mark Dexter]

I never got paid a dime for doing the clock in high school. (The checks from my college are nice, though.)

That said, going 'back' to 2-person mechanics is one of my biggest worries in reffing in the real world. In the past 3 years, I've only worked 2 games with two officials, and I was rusty on both of them.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by drothamel
And out of curiosity, for those who do use 2-whistle, what do you think about it?

I don't mind 2-man games as that's still a majority of my games but when you have 2 really good teams, I know I'm usually tired after that game where as with a 3-man crew, I'm felling pretty good after games. So far for next season, I think 6 out of my 39 V games are 3-man. I still have some opps from another association but we still see limited 3-man games. It's growing as another conference is adding some this year and more next year.

[JRutledge]

It is pretty common for the table personnel here to be paid much more than the officials.

In football it has become a running joke with the chain crew. For varsity games we use 5 officials. In many cases we might work two games on a Friday or Saturday varsity date. At the most HS official working a double header in football might get $95. In some cases you might not make $90 based on the conference. When we talk to the chain crew and ask them what they make they say "$100."

Switch back to basketball and the table personnel. They might make $60 each or some other outrageous number above what the officials (who do all the running) make and then they come back and complain that give us a $2 raise is too much. And sometimes these are employees of the school district that get paid on top of what they already make.

Peace

[brianp134]

Thats sad that they would make more than the officials. In my area the table crew is paid about $15 a game. I could be wrong.

[tomegun]

Money is an issue here (I live in the DC area NOT Nevada anymore ) as well as the third person. Fortunately we have an assigner who will send a 3rd official to a game if needed.

We really can't control the money but we can control the third person. If the U2 is weak and it shows they can easily become the target of the coaches. They complain that there is no reason to have the U2 because they aren't ready for the game anyway. I know for a fact this has been said before by coaches and administration and quite frankly they are often right.