Rules of Pivoting

[ysong]

Thanks for helping me on this, Deecee.

Do not get me wrong, I have no doubt that the move in part-1 is a travel. but where is the rule to back me up?

Originally posted by deecee
if a player jumps with the ball and lands without shoointg, passing or a defender knocking the ball lose are gaining simultaneous possesion of the ball what would you call -- up and down or travel -- he essentially jumped and didn't get rid of the ball before he landed -- basic travel call.

In your example, the travel call is well founded, because the rule says: he can lift his pivot foot but can not put it back to the floor before he gets rid of the ball.

but in my case, his pivot foot never returns to the floor until the ball is gone. So this rule does not fit this scenario. Actually, I believe none of the travel rules fits this scenario.

Again, I know it is a travel, but I really like to have a rule to back it up.

I asked this question before, a while ago in this forum. But no rules were given to me. I can not see why this case is so worthless to be listed in the traveling violations. (BTW, the rules even bother to say "a player can not run with the ball")

Thanks again, Deecee.

[brainbrian]

Originally posted by ysong
Technically, do you believe this player traveled even though the move looked very smooth?

There are smooth plays that are travels, and there are ugly plays that aren't travels.

[deecee]

im not the best -- there are refs that are much better at knowing the rules than me -- im not the best for that -- i ref basketball and just try and make sure the game gets decided by the kids with as little involvment as possible.

[mplagrow]

I try to make a mental note of the ball handler's pivot foot, when and where it was established. I see that foot come down again in another spot without a pass or shot, that's when I'm seeing the travel. I suppose a jump stop is sort of an exception to that, but jump stops are stupid anyhow. I don't know when that became a rule, or if it always was, but I think they're ridiculous and most kids think it's a license to travel. "WHAT?!?!? Why'd you call a travel, ref? It was a jump stop!!" Yeah, but you pivoted after the stop!

[Lotto]

Originally posted by ysong

a player picked up his dribble and pivoted back and forth a couple times, then he tried to make a big step toward the basket. but because he wanted to cover a big distance with this step, instead of stepping (at least one foot on the floor at any given time), he in fact noticeably jumpped off his pivot foot before his non-pivot foot touched the floor, then he moved along and jumped off his non-pivot foot and made a basket, before his pivot foot ever touched the floor again.

This is a legal play as long as the player jumps "cleanly" with the pivot foot; that is, as long as the player doesn't slide the pivot foot while jumping. In fact, something almost identical happens all the time during a layup---a player catches the ball in the air, one foot down, then the other, then the layup. If this happens while the player is in full stride, then the pivot foot (first one down) will leave the floor before the other foot touches the floor.

The question got me thinking, though. Let's leave out jump stops and the case where a player is starting a dribble. The rule says that "[a]fter coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot ... [t]he pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the playing court, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal." Imagine a player who establishes his/her left foot as the pivot foot. After he/she lifts that foot, he/she hops once or twice on the right foot without the left foot touching the floor again, then passes or shoots. Since the pivot foot never touches the floor, it seems as though, by rule, no violation has occurred. Thoughts?

[mplagrow]

Originally posted by Lotto

This is a legal play as long as the player jumps "cleanly" with the pivot foot; that is, as long as the player doesn't slide the pivot foot while jumping. In fact, something almost identical happens all the time during a layup---a player catches the ball in the air, one foot down, then the other, then the layup. If this happens while the player is in full stride, then the pivot foot (first one down) will leave the floor before the other foot touches the floor.

The question got me thinking, though. Let's leave out jump stops and the case where a player is starting a dribble. The rule says that "[a]fter coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot ... [t]he pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the playing court, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal." Imagine a player who establishes his/her left foot as the pivot foot. After he/she lifts that foot, he/she hops once or twice on the right foot without the left foot touching the floor again, then passes or shoots. Since the pivot foot never touches the floor, it seems as though, by rule, no violation has occurred. Thoughts?

True, I see your point. It's semantic. The foot they are hopping on is not technically called their pivot foot, because that had previously been established. But you and I both know that if that foot leaves the ground and returns, there had bloody well better be a travel call.

[deecee]

thats just reading to much into a rule -- so when i coach my kids i will tell them hey bobby just lift your pivot foot and stand on the other foot and just hop down the court -- its not a traveling violation because your pivot foot hasnt been put back down...

[Camron Rust]

When a player jumps, it is a travel for either foot (pivot or other) to return to the floor before the ball is release. The question to be asked is really "was it a jump or a step?" That is a judgement the official must make. In a layup, it is quite clearly a step. At the other end of the spectrum, a player jumping straight up is a jump. At some point in between, it changes from one to the other. I'd say it really depends on the "vector" of the movement...ie...was it more horizontal or more vertical?

[Lotto]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
When a player jumps, it is a travel for either foot (pivot or other) to return to the floor before the ball is release.

Can you give me a rule that backs this up?

I'm not challenging the substance of your comment; I just want to understand how it follows from the rules.

[Edited by Lotto on May 13th, 2005 at 08:31 AM]

[Lotto]

Originally posted by deecee
thats just reading to much into a rule -- so when i coach my kids i will tell them hey bobby just lift your pivot foot and stand on the other foot and just hop down the court -- its not a traveling violation because your pivot foot hasnt been put back down...

Um, I don't see how this is "reading to[o] much" into a rule. If the rule says that something is legal, then it's legal. Now I agree with you that this hopping scenario "should" be a travel. However, the rule I cited seems to say explicitly that it's legal. How do we reconcile this?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Lotto

Can you give me a rule that backs this up?

I'm not challenging the substance of your comment; I just want to understand how it follows from the rules.

NFHS rules 4-43-3(a)(b) & 4(a).

[Lotto]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
NFHS rules 4-43-3(a)(b) & 4(a).

Ah, the key is 4-43-3(b).

There's no corresponding statement in the NCAA rulebook. Since that's what we use in NY for girl's HS ball, I don't know the Fed rules as well.

Anyone want to comment on the "hopping on the nonpivot foot" as far as NCAA rules are concerned?

[mick]

Originally posted by Lotto

Ah, the key is 4-43-3(b).

There's no corresponding statement in the NCAA rulebook. Since that's what we use in NY for girl's HS ball, I don't know the Fed rules as well.

Anyone want to comment on the "hopping on the nonpivot foot" as far as NCAA rules are concerned?

Lotto,
Au contraire!
NCAA 4-66 describes what can be done.
Hopping is not described, thus hopping is illegal.
mick

[ysong]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

NFHS rules 4-43-3(a)(b) & 4(a).

Unbelievable. I really convinced myself that I had completedly devoured the NFHS rulebook. But apparently I missed 4-43-3(b).

Thanks JR! You probably can't not imagine the relieved feeling I am having now. (but, why did you not tell me this last year? )

[ysong]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
The question to be asked is really "was it a jump or a step?" That is a judgement the official must make. In a layup, it is quite clearly a step.

I hope you don't mind that I challenge your point here.

I believe there are 4 ways and only the following 4 ways to do a legal lay-up:

While moving, at the moment a player catches the ball, (either with one hand or with two hands, either from a pass or from a dribble),

A) one of his foot (foot #1) touches the floor, then foot #2 touches the floor, then foot #1 leaves the floor, then foot #2 leaves the floor, ball is gone, foot (feet) back to the floor. this is the step-jump-shoot sequence.

B)gets the ball when foot #1 on the floor, then foot #1 off the floor, foot #2 back to floor, foot #2 off the floor, ball gone, foot (feet) back to floor. this is the jump-jump-shoot sequence.

C)gets the ball when both feet off the floor, then foot #1 back to floor, foot #1 off the floor, foot #2 back to floor, foot #2 off the floor, ball gone, foot(feet) back to floor. This is the land-jump-jump-shoot sequence, with alternate "footings".

D)gets the ball when both feet off the floor, then foot #1 back to floor, foot #1 off the floor, foot #1 back to floor again(!), foot #1 off the floor, ball gone, foot (feet) back to the floor. this is the land-jump-jump-shoot sequence, with the same footing.

(if a player gets the ball while two feet on the floor, even when he is walking, then he is not allowed to do a lay-up. also there are no other ways to do "lay-ups")

I "claim" all the above 4 lay-ups are legal.

Do you think my claim is correct?

thanks.