free throw lane issues

[deecee]

It's our job to make sure the game goes fair -- if i ask a player several times to do something and he doesnt and I dont do anything about it then I have NO control of the game -- if a coach or captain doesnt step in to fix the situation then I HAVE to.

If a coach or AD calls my assignor for this after I gave his player ample opportunity to fix the situation I am not in the wrong. Coaches and players need to learn that there is a line between playing basketball and being a jackass -- 1 of those I do not tolerate.

And also how was I not being "preventative" I offered Team A player the option to chose a spot 3 times -- It's not my fault that he doesn't understand english or chose to push the limits. To many officials "ask" players and coaches to many times to do something -- if i ask a player to stop hand checking once maybe twice and he doesn't adjust hes going to get called for a foul. If i ask a coach to move on after a close call and he keeps on it i offer him one last chance to let it go -- then i help him let it go.

short of my doing a dance to get this player to stay in a spot on the free throw lane -- he was up for a T. And it didn't hurt that half his team came up to me after the game to say it was a good T and he was being a jackass.

So far in my six years (4 for high school) i have only given out maybe 5or6 t's in a high school game. Usually for coaches who wont let some subjects die, players who think it necessary to curse at themselves when the mess up so loud that the whole gym hears it and players that just cross the boundary with other players. Unlike some officials I have worked with i have my line in the sand and teams and coaches know where it is -- Im not afraid to penalize someone for crossing it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by icallfouls
QUOTE]Originally posted by deecee
....
If this was a high school game I would have approached it the same way -- Heres why I would not bounce the ball and issue a lane violation.

Both teams violated (team A did not fake team B in) so essentially there is no real advantage as both the offense and the defense were disconcerting to the shooter. And also as officials we should not be bouncing the ball to the shooter while players are adjusting themselves on the lanes. In high school if a coach or captain does not step in and tell his player to hold his spot that's their problem -- I ask once, twice then ring up the player that is the cause of this.

Part of our job is to perform preventative officiating activities and game management. Your ringing up will only get your assignors phone ringing and thus your phone ringing. If this is the way you choose to work, enjoy the many years of rec ball that will be headed your way. I realize this seems harsh but if you are going to T people up because you cannot gain control of your game by any other method, please don't bring the trainwreck that is your officiating career to my games.

Use some common sense! [/QUOTE]Fwiw, what you did is common sense imo, DeeCee. If preventive officiating breaks down and the players ignore you, you then have to have the balls to call a "T". I'm an assignor, and there's nothing the matter with the way you handled it imo. Personally, I have more of a problem with officials who don't really have the balls to call a "T" and then try to disguise that fact by using the ol' "preventive officiating" defense.

[icallfouls]

"It's our job to make sure the game goes fair -- if i ask a player several times to do something and he doesnt and I dont do anything about it then I have NO control of the game -- if a coach or captain doesnt step in to fix the situation then I HAVE to."

Our job is to administer the rules of the game, use common sense officiating (part of the college rule book). Fair? No. Being fair would require that for every team with a 6'10" athletic player, the other team should get one too, that a foul at one end is followed by another at the oppostite end so that its 'fair.' The officials control the game whether you believe it or not. We decide how the bigs will play, or what the guards can and cannot do. Coaches and players make adjustments based on your calls.

"If a coach or AD calls my assignor for this after I gave his player ample opportunity to fix the situation I am not in the wrong. Coaches and players need to learn that there is a line between playing basketball and being a jackass -- 1 of those I do not tolerate."

The reality of the matter is that the schools have input as to who works for them. In my neck of the woods, coaches can black ball officials, in areas where officials have to develop their own game schedules coaches will hire or fire you based on how they like the way you call a game and your game management skills. Look at some of the responsibilities that have been added to our duties, even this year. Example, that we have to deal with unruly fans through the site management. We have to further inforce bench decorum during timeouts. Look at the college game, those coaches have more power than almost every official because of the $$$$ that are on the line. In alot of cases the reason rules changes and POE are developed is because of specific concerns by coaches. I forget the game, but two years ago, a referee during the ACC tournament T'd up NC State for not coming out of timeout according to rule. He subsequently was sent home from the tournament.

"And also how was I not being "preventative" I offered Team A player the option to chose a spot 3 times -- It's not my fault that he doesn't understand english or chose to push the limits. To many officials "ask" players and coaches to many times to do something -- if i ask a player to stop hand checking once maybe twice and he doesn't adjust hes going to get called for a foul. If i ask a coach to move on after a close call and he keeps on it i offer him one last chance to let it go -- then i help him let it go.

short of my doing a dance to get this player to stay in a spot on the free throw lane -- he was up for a T. And it didn't hurt that half his team came up to me after the game to say it was a good T and he was being a jackass."

If it takes you 3 times on the first shot and then proceeds this routine prior to the second, then the players already don't respect you and you have lost control (of this moment). Players and coaches don't want referees to decide the outcome of games on T's that are less than obvious.

"So far in my six years (4 for high school) i have only given out maybe 5or6 t's in a high school game. Usually for coaches who wont let some subjects die, players who think it necessary to curse at themselves when the mess up so loud that the whole gym hears it and players that just cross the boundary with other players. Unlike some officials I have worked with i have my line in the sand and teams and coaches know where it is -- Im not afraid to penalize someone for crossing it."

If a player moving back and forth from lane line to lane line is your 'line in the sand' thats fine, but don't expect to be commended or rewarded for it. State tournament games are not handed out for this type of line in the sand mentality. There are plenty of other ways to deal with a player you are having difficulty reaching. In the context of your situation,the T was an abuse of power.

[deecee]

i can guess if i were working with you we'd still be at the game as these two players kept switching sides...

[icallfouls]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Part of our job is to perform preventative officiating activities and game management. Your ringing up will only get your assignors phone ringing and thus your phone ringing. If this is the way you choose to work, enjoy the many years of rec ball that will be headed your way. I realize this seems harsh but if you are going to T people up because you cannot gain control of your game by any other method, please don't bring the trainwreck that is your officiating career to my games.

Use some common sense!

Fwiw, what you did is common sense imo, DeeCee. If preventive officiating breaks down and the players ignore you, you then have to have the balls to call a "T". I'm an assignor, and there's nothing the matter with the way you handled it imo. Personally, I have more of a problem with officials who don't really have the balls to call a "T" and then try to disguise that fact by using the ol' "preventive officiating" defense. [/QUOTE]

Mr Jurrassic,

During my time on this forum, I have in general sided with you. I will just ask you this, if this is the state championship game and you have assigned this game, would you want this call made in a two point game with time running out? If your answer is in the affirmative then I would like to know how you could possibly support the official that made this call. How can you answer to the newspaper reporter, the coaches, the fans of this game? Are you really going to say it was the right call at the right time and that it improved the game?

It's not about balls to make this call, it about how to prevent the situation from coming to this point since there was no apparent lead up to this. A great game literally went down the tubes.

This situation could/should have been handled differently.

[icallfouls]

Originally posted by deecee
i can guess if i were working with you we'd still be at the game as these two players kept switching sides...

NO! Because I would have taken care of it much sooner.

[deecee]

HOW would you have handled it earlier??????????

It's easy to say "Oh i would have handled it earlier -- and done it correctly"

well please explain...

[icallfouls]

I have already explained it, as have others here.

I am not saying my way is the best way, I just don't believe a T at this time did anything to improve the game.

Tell a teammate/coach/captain to get him to stop, they might have replaced him on the lane. Tell the player "don't cost your team in this situation." We'll never know, but I would think there is a better alternative in this situation.

[deecee]

so after i ask this player 3 times and he doesn't listen -- i have to walk to a coach or captain and now ask them -- how does this make the crew look to the other team (a) and fans (b) -- i think you lost all credibility when you ask a player and he doesn't listen and then you go and hunt down the captain/coach and ask him -- if the coach or captain cannot see that you are trying to talk to a player who is not listing and they dont step in then the T to the player could vey well be handed to the coach/captain for not doing their job as well.

and in a situation like that -- The ref did not decide the outcome of the game, the player did. Just because its a close game and an important one doesn't mean the player/coach can start acting like know it all jackasses. If you T him up is sucks for his team -- well if you don't T him up then it sucks for the other team who didn't do anything wrong.

I really think it absurd to ask the coach/captain for help here after I have asked this kid/adult -- there are consequences for actions and they know when they are pushing the limit, they always know when they get "T'd" up that it was coming. Don't make this a bigger deal than it would be in a game by running around and asking coach/captain/kids parents for help in controling him -- after all we are the authority on the court act as such.

[mick]

Originally posted by deecee
...so after i ask this player 3 times and he doesn't listen...

deecee,
And that 3 times is the problem that I see.
One time should have been plenty.
Make them believe the first time. Let them get to know and to believe you "right now".
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by icallfouls
I have already explained it, as have others here.

I am not saying my way is the best way, I just don't believe a T at this time did anything to improve the game.

Tell a teammate/coach/captain to get him to stop, they might have replaced him on the lane. Tell the player "don't cost your team in this situation." We'll never know, but I would think there is a better alternative in this situation.

What exactly is your better alternative then precisely?

You don't have any rules backing to make either of those playes actually be replaced on the lane. Please tell me that you really aren't gonna stop the game and go over and ask a coach or a captain to handle something that is your responsibility from the git-go. "Please, Coach, make him stop doing that" Lah me. What are you gonna do if the teammates/coaches/captains ignore your pleas, like the 2 players that keep switching positions?

To be quite honest,I can't think of another way to handle this other than what DeeCee did. If the players are blatantly ignoring your explicit instructions- especially twice, then it's on them- not you. I'm all for preventive officiating, but I really need help on this one as to what else you do when your preventive officiating fails. What other alternative do you have except a "T"?

That "T" is preventive officiating imo. It should make those clowns think about challenging you or ignoring you in the future.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on May 11th, 2005 at 03:37 PM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
What exactly is your better alternative then precisely?

What other alternative do you have except a "T"?

The double T. No shots, no change of possession. But you screw around one more time, you're gone. Now let's play ball.

[icallfouls]

Originally posted by deecee
so after i ask this player 3 times and he doesn't listen -- i have to walk to a coach or captain and now ask them -- how does this make the crew look to the other team (a) and fans (b) -- i think you lost all credibility when you ask a player and he doesn't listen and then you go and hunt down the captain/coach and ask him -- if the coach or captain cannot see that you are trying to talk to a player who is not listing and they dont step in then the T to the player could vey well be handed to the coach/captain for not doing their job as well.

and in a situation like that -- The ref did not decide the outcome of the game, the player did. Just because its a close game and an important one doesn't mean the player/coach can start acting like know it all jackasses. If you T him up is sucks for his team -- well if you don't T him up then it sucks for the other team who didn't do anything wrong.


I really think it absurd to ask the coach/captain for help here after I have asked this kid/adult -- there are consequences for actions and they know when they are pushing the limit, they always know when they get "T'd" up that it was coming. Don't make this a bigger deal than it would be in a game by running around and asking coach/captain/kids parents for help in controling him -- after all we are the authority on the court act as such.

I am not saying go hunt down the coach, just merely presenting alternatives which I thought you wanted to hear. I am sure there are others that were not even presented, but there were other alternatives that could have been employed.

It is obvious you don't really want an opinion but rather support for your call. I think I made it clear that I do not support this call. Feel free to make this call at a camp where you are trying to get picked up. I guarantee that you won't hear many positives about the call. I doubt the assignor is going to say "now that's the kind of calls I want my staff to make." I doubt anyone else here will deny that.

If it will help you sleep, then I say "Great Call that was one we had to get or we were going to loose control of this game."

[Edited by icallfouls on May 11th, 2005 at 03:47 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

The double T. No shots, no change of possession. But you screw around one more time, you're gone. Now let's play ball.

Chuck, that woulda been my call exactly. Both players were doing it. Both players shoulda been penalized equally. I also shoulda explained my position a l'il bit better or clearer. Thanks.

[deecee]

but why should i T up the defense when its the offensive player that initiated this and its him that i asked to pick a spot and stay there and then have the defense match up accordingly.

all the defense wanted to do was match up their bigman with the offensives bigman -- if you could explain why you would give a double t in this case i would appreciate it as i do hate to be the deciding factor in a game (in this case they ended up winning so the T didnt decide the game).