free throw lane issues

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by icallfouls

Come on Chuck! There is no way you are going to call that in a college game, and you know it. Be honest.[/b]

As others have said, I doubt it would come to that in a college game. But if it did, I don't see what could be wrong with handling it with a double T. Both players were delaying. Neither would listen to my instructions. Why shouldn't I whack 'em? If a coach is on the floor and I tell him 3 times that he needs to find his box, but he doesn't. . . whack! I don't see how this is different.

And as I said earlier, you send exactly the message that you want (Knock it off now, or you're done!) without disrupting the game (no FTs, no change of possession). As far as I can tell, it's a win-win solution. What am I missing?

I would love to be there to hear your explanation. "Mr. Assignor, I couldn't get them to hold their spots on the lane for a FT so I whacked them." Can you honestly say that your assignor is going to say "I am glad you were there to take care of it."

If I tell him it was necessary, then yes, I believe that he would say "Way to keep the game moving."

[icallfouls]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

As others have said, I doubt it would come to that in a college game. But if it did, I don't see what could be wrong with handling it with a double T. Both players were delaying. Neither would listen to my instructions. Why shouldn't I whack 'em? If a coach is on the floor and I tell him 3 times that he needs to find his box, but he doesn't. . . whack! I don't see how this is different.

And as I said earlier, you send exactly the message that you want (Knock it off now, or you're done!) without disrupting the game (no FTs, no change of possession). As far as I can tell, it's a win-win solution. What am I missing?

If I tell him it was necessary, then yes, I believe that he would say "Way to keep the game moving." [/B]

Chuck,
Beleive me, I can see where everyone is coming from on this, but for this situation when there were no apparent other game management techniques used, the punishment does not fit the crime. Heck yes, send a message, but don't send the wrong message either, that the crew expended all reasonable options before the T, not in this case. Suppose it is on tape. At least with a coach who is on the floor, it is easy to tell that you are trying to get them back to the box.

Now, when the second player started to move and without receiving any warning to have a double T called. The officials, imo, would be out of line.

I am sure that there are many of us out there that have seen two players get tangled up, or tied up on a jump ball and we could see things flaring up, but rather than T them, we used a different game management technique. I know I have, especially when the situation wasn't going to lead to something more. The transgression in these situations warrants a T more than Player A who won't hold his spot because the crew didn't take charge.

My only suggestion on this has been to use more game management skills and common sense before issuing a T here. I can honestly say that this would not happen in my game, at any level and I would not have to give a T to make my point.

[Edited by icallfouls on May 11th, 2005 at 07:18 PM]

[deecee]

short of me jumping on his back and riding him like a bronco -- and im 6'6" 230 -- to his spot on the lane i only say pretty please once -- i dont like players trying to walk over me and ill put them in line in a mens/high school/rec/college game if i think they are trying to walk over me.

you still havent explained how we didnt take charge and your solutions so far i find absurd -- a) bounce the ball and then just whistle a violation (which is not proper mechanics and bad officiating anyways) and b) to ask the coach and captain (its not my job to ask for help if i ask the player -- or tell the player what to do).

i just want to know who gets to chose matchup -- offense or defense in the lanes. In 6 years this is my first time coming across this and i went through the rules/case book and didnt find anything addressing this. As far as how i handled it -- i dont doubt the validity of how i handled it since it was one player that i was adressing and only one player that was initiating this. Please dont make this a philosophical discussion anymore i just would like to know defense or offense.

[icallfouls]

Originally posted by deecee
[B]short of me jumping on his back and riding him like a bronco -- and im 6'6" 230 -- to his spot on the lane i only say pretty please once -- i dont like players trying to walk over me and ill put them in line in a mens/high school/rec/college game if i think they are trying to walk over me.

you still havent explained how we didnt take charge and your solutions so far i find absurd -- a) bounce the ball and then just whistle a violation (which is not proper mechanics and bad officiating anyways) and b) to ask the coach and captain (its not my job to ask for help if i ask the player -- or tell the player what to do).

[i]/B]

I have explained how I think you could have better managed this or handled it before a T was needed. I would have told the guy not to cost his team right now. He can infer whatever he wants from the statement. Issue a delay of game warning for not allowing the ball to be put into play. T's are generally the last technique to employ, I just don't see how the T in this game was the last/best resort.

If you have retrieved the ball after the first throw and you let him go back and forth 3 times after having told him to hold his spot, just make the ball available to the shooter. Once you said to hold your spots this indicates that the ball is going to be put in play. His further movement becomes a violation.

AS FAR AS WHO CHOOSES. In general, the defense usually makes the choice. Example: When I played, I used to be the defensive/rebounding specialist, I got the leading scorer. I went where he went. If we were shooting FT's then their best/tallst rebounder would find me. If they were shooting, I would find my guy, unless he was shooting or out of the game, then I would look for their next best player.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by deecee

1) you still havent explained how we didnt take charge and your solutions so far i find absurd -- a) bounce the ball and then just whistle a violation (which is not proper mechanics and bad officiating anyways) and b) to ask the coach and captain (its not my job to ask for help if i ask the player -- or tell the player what to do).

2) i just want to know who gets to chose matchup -- offense or defense in the lanes.

1) None of Icallfouls' solutions are backed up either by rule(s) or approved mechanic(s).

2) No one gets to choose match-ups when lining up for FT's. The defense must fill the bottom 2 slots. Period. Rules reference is R8-1-4(b). The shooting team has the option of 1,2 or no players filling the next slots up. Period. Rules reference is R-8-1-4(c). If someone wants to "match up", they have to do it without delaying the game. Whether they actually do delay the game or not is a judgement call by the administering official. If he feels that a player(s) is delaying the game, it's a "T". Rules reference is R10-3-6(a). There are no other applicable rules, AFAIK.

Quit worrying. You done good imo.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by icallfouls
[i]/B]

Issue a delay of game warning for not allowing the ball to be put into play.


[/B][/QUOTE]There is NO rule that will allow you to issue a delay-of-game warning in this situation. Iow, very bad advice.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by icallfouls

Beleive me, I can see where everyone is coming from on this, but for this situation when there were no apparent other game management techniques used, the punishment does not fit the crime. Heck yes, send a message, but don't send the wrong message either, that the crew expended all reasonable options before the T, not in this case.

Jim --

I'm not sure you see the picture clearly of the sitch. It appears to me as though

player A stepped across the lane
player B stepped across the lane
then player A stepped back again
player B stepped back again
here, I suspect, ref said, "Hey, guys, enough."
but they both stepped across again
ref then says, "Next spot is it."
player A then stepped across again
Now ref bounces ball, and shooter misses.
then they start stepping back and forth again!

It appears to me that this all happened in one free throw, not over several free throw sets over several minutes.

At what point would you have issued a warning? When would you stop the free throw sequence to track down the captain? Would it make the game better to stop everything and ask the coach to talk to his player? Which coach? When all this action happens so quickly one thing on top of the other, does it make sense to stop everything to get the coach involved? Or were you thinking they had done this several times during several free throw sets? How is the ref forfeiting control to tell the players to stop it and then issuing a T when they don't stop? It seems to me that it's taking control, not giving it up. I don't understand your point of view.

[mick]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Jim --

I'm not sure you see the picture clearly of the sitch. It appears to me as though

I suspect, ref said, "Hey, guys, enough."
but they both stepped across again
ref then says, "Next spot is it."
player A then stepped across again

deecee - "Adult league championship game -- 30 seconds left team A up by 2 and shooting 2 free throws -- team A occupies the second spot and Team B big man goes to match up with Team A big man -- Team A big man then goes to move across the lane and team b big man follows him so he can box him out -- Now mind you I still have the ball -- once team b big man positions himself team A big man starts to go back across to the other side -- its like free throw musical chairs -- i ask him the next spot he goes to he better stay there -- team b big man now stays across from him as i administer free throw #1 -- shooter misses first shot. team B big man now goes to line up next to Team A big man -- Team A big man begins to play same game and I ask him to stay at his next spot -- he then turns around because team b big man was following him -- I "T" him up (team A big man) since I had asked him 3 times by now to pick a spot and stay there. I clear the lane and his player now misses the second shot."

Jewel,
Looks to me like the focus was on one player.
Team B was not addressed.
Wasn't equal attention.

mick

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by deecee

i just want to know who gets to chose matchup -- offense or defense in the lanes.

The referee gets to choose. I always (the two or so times this has happened) put the defense in first.

[Ref in PA]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

The referee gets to choose. I always (the two or so times this has happened) put the defense in first.

Finally someone who agrees with me. Defense has to occupy the two lower spots. Put them in first, make them stay. Then add offense if they want their slots, then add defense. It is not hard. Does the rules cover this specifically? no, but logic allows us to use this reasoning.

[ysong]

I believe the double T is the best solution under this circumstance. Thanks for sharing your insights.

But I still have some questions:

1.What if this happens early in the game when the T does not decide the outcome of the game? is double T still the preferred solution?

2.the rules require the defense fill the bottom 2 slots, and give the shooting team some options to choose. But is the order of the events implied here by the rules? i,e, the defense has to set first, then offense choose their spots? (at first glance, I think the order is implied. but when I read it again, I am not really sure now.)

If the order is implied by the rules, then should the defense side be given the warning first?

Thanks.

[icallfouls]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Issue a delay of game warning for not allowing the ball to be put into play.

There is NO rule that will allow you to issue a delay-of-game warning in this situation. Iow, very bad advice. [/B][/QUOTE]

Jurassic,

If you are saying that a T is the correct call here, I disagree. I have tried to suggest other ways to address this matter. I presented to you the identical situation in a state championship final and another example at the college level where an official T'd up a team for violation of time out readiness. You have said that you are an assignor. You know, referees get reprimanded, suspended, and fired for such things and for you to suggest otherwise is irresponsible to the future career of such an official. You may not like my ideas, and I did not say it was the best, just an alternative and that something like this would never happen in my game because it wouldn't have gotten so far as I would have managed it differently.

[ChuckElias]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by icallfouls

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

That's not what he's saying. He's saying what I said yesterday on page 3 of this thread, which is: There are only 3 delay warnings in FED rules.

• Interfering with a ball after a made basket;
• Breaking the throw-in plane by a defender; and
• Huddling in the lane before a FT.

So your possible solution of issuing a warning for delay in our scenario is not allowed by rule; unless, as I said yesterday, you consider walking through the lane to be "huddling".

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by icallfouls
[/B]

You have said that you are an assignor. You know, referees get reprimanded, suspended, and fired for such things and for you to suggest otherwise is irresponsible to the future career of such an official. You may not like my ideas, and I did not say it was the best, just an alternative and that something like this would never happen in my game because it wouldn't have gotten so far as I would have managed it differently.

[/B][/QUOTE]Where I assign, officials get reprimanded, suspended and fired for making up their own rules and not following the written ones that we have. The future career of any official that might wanna try to make up his rules instead of following the ones we got could be an awful short one. Jmo.

There is no rules justification or backing that I know of for the ideas you are proposing . If I received a written complaint about your actions(such as issuing a warning where the rules don't allow one), I really can't think of a valid response that I could make in your defense.

We disagree. No big deal.

[johnny1784]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Originally posted by icallfouls

That's not what he's saying. He's saying what I said yesterday on page 3 of this thread, which is: There are only 3 delay warnings in FED rules.

• Interfering with a ball after a made basket;
• Breaking the throw-in plane by a defender; and
• Huddling in the lane before a FT.

So your possible solution of issuing a warning for delay in our scenario is not allowed by rule; unless, as I said yesterday, you consider walking through the lane to be "huddling".

I agree with your reply.

I think too many times, a basketball official misuses his/her authority on implying the NFHS rules. We also tend to misunderstand the use of game management techniques.